Mum sentenced to 28 months in prison for abortion pills

[mumoftwobarnyboys]

Used after the cut off point of 10 weeks.

Regardless of how far gone she was, surely this isn't right?

It is her body, despite me morally really thinking what she did was very wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/12/woman-in-uk-jailed-for-28-months-over-taking-abortion-pills-after-legal-time-limit?CMP=twtgu&utmmsource=Twitter&utmmedium=&s=08#Echobox=1686577294

Agree. But they campaigned to maintain it post Covid too, saying explicitly that cases like this were not something we needed to worry about. Awks.

Mmmm no, I read what you said. I’d ask for it to be deleted if I were you. It makes you look like a really awful person.

I don’t like a pile on but I can’t see how that can be read any other way, it really is awful.

That woman killed a viable child.
Newborns find loving homes, and hopefully would avoid the 'Care' system and traumas like Attachment disorder by being placed with a secure set of parents from the outset.

I know adults who were adopted very young, as in, almost immediately, and they don't seem as damaged as older children.

It isn't 'All about the pregnant woman'..this woman had ample time to take the morning after pill, or arrange for a termination before lockdown.

The wholesale lies and deception in her case shows she was deeply selfish, caring only for herself, not the suffering of a foetus with a developed brain and nervous system.

The Paramedics will likely be traumatised by having to try to revive a deceased infant.

No excuse for what she did.

This women must have not been of sound mind to make this decision, and I must also think she would be absolutely bereft at this point. So much so her life as it was is irrefutably gone forever, as there is not much coming back from that sort of trauma, guilt and public airing of the most heinous of ‘crimes’.

Poor woman, poor living children and poor poor baby.

Lest we not judge. That’s just my opinion of course. She’s being made out to be a callous serial killer by some, which is a bit hard to swallow for me, having seen first hand the impact of lock down on the mental health of some. We lost few to this, may I remind everyone.

I of course do not have all the facts but don’t like to think the worst in this case.

Fact or opinion?

Whilst it is awful that it happened so late, what is the answer. Should we force women to give birth to a baby that they don't want. She has the womb and vagina here.
If women are forced to deliver babies they don't want then it is a bit too Handmaid's tale.
Pregancy is not always a happy time of excitement.

What is the answer?*

I mean do we drug women forcibly and deliver by c section or should these women just leave their unwanted newborns in rubbish tips etc?

I like the idea of those baby boxes where women can discreetly leave their unwanted baby. And ffs , let's destigmatise single parenthood so that women don't fear having a child alone...make motherhood easier for women.

But she did give birth to the baby

Exactly. She was going to give birth to the baby anyway so it wasn’t “forced”. It was the only option she left herself.

What she did to was make sure the child would be dead when she did give birth to it.

@AgathaSpencerGregson It doesn’t make someone an awful person because they disagree with you or say something you don’t like.

@malificent7 Totally agree.

i agree that expressing a contrary opinion doesn’t make someone an awful person. Saying repellent things then doubling down quite possibly does, though.

@AgathaSpencerGregson But again that’s your opinion. I don’t think we’ll agree so let’s leave it there.

A question for you. It seems the paramedics who attended attempted to revive the little girl, Lily. Presumably they should not have done that, in your view, unless Foster had expressly instructed them to do so?

People tend to judge what they can’t or don’t want to understand. No allowance for the kind of mental and emotional turmoil that unwanted late pregnancy + moving in with her ex that would have prompted such a poorly judged act. It’s act of desperation and mental health issues rather than intentional evil. She clearly was not thinking straight. It’s interesting you don’t even factor in the trauma she will have experienced herself from her own actions.

Highly unlikely an adopted child would avoid the risk of attachment disorders and other psychological problems common to adoptees. And vanishingly unlikely to get adopted ‘immediately’ in lockdown or series of lockdowns - completely unrealistic.

Judge was clear no mental health issues. Why we keep having to invent exculpatory facts I really don’t know. Perhaps because it doesn’t suit us to admit that women can, on rare occasions, do really quite horrendous things.

She was pregnant with another man's child, had moved back in with her estranged partner but wasn't sure who the Dad of her current pregnancy was as had been sleeping with 2 men and she was concealing the pregnancy from her partner she was living with again.

It seems like that's why she wanted to abort and not go for adoption.

For all of those saying that women should not be forced to deliver babies they do not want and should be offered termination up until term, what do you suggest then? That late term foetuses should be euthanised and then removed by c-section? Up until term? On demand?

”We” don’t have to invent “facts”. He said she wasn’t suffering from a specific serious mental illness (eg bipolar or schizophrenia) at the time but that she suffered from “emotionally unstable” personality traits. “Emotionally unstable” refers to EUPD. So she didn’t have a PD but she had certain traits of one.

He also accepted that she felt “very deep and genuine remorse” for her actions. And that she wracked by guilt and have suffered depression. He also commented: "I also accept that you had a very deep emotional attachment to your unborn child and that you are plagued by nightmares and flashbacks to seeing your dead child's face.”

The letter the medical services sent the judge is correct that imprisonment will deter other women from accessing telemedical abortion services, and it will deter other late-gestation women from seeking medical care or from being open and honest with medical professionals.

It will also increase the incidence of investigations after late-gestation deliveries. (Already on the rise).

Real efforts to concoct a suitable backstory here. There was no pathology, no evidence of personality disorder here. She was sane and chose to do a bad thing.
as I said previously, the great majority of convicted defendants display “emotional instability” - chaotic behaviour, poor decision making, crap attempts at covering their tracks etc. Doing dumb shit like going on Facebook to tell everyone that no one can judge you the night before telling your counsel to tell the judge how sorry you are. Absolutely typical.

The most pertinent fact you seem to be lacking is that she knew she was pregnant with a baby she didn’t want in November or December. Well before lockdown and before most of us had even heard of covid. She had ample opportunity to seek out an abortion before that and chose not to. She used covid as an excuse to to lie to abortion providers to get the pills she used. She didn’t use the pills until May.

If you read my post more carefully, I didn’t say there was evidence of a PD. I said the phrase “emotionally unstable personality traits” refers to specific traits generally seen in EUPD although she was not diagnosed with EUPD itself - for example extreme emotions and unpredictable reactions.

I'm pro choice but at 34 weeks that's not abortion that's murdering a baby.

Prison is the right response.

This is it. Medics are trained to save lives. Quite apart from the argument of when a feotus becomes a baby (which the abortion law does essentially define), it's really wrong to expect dedicated medical staff to be OK with performing very late term 'abortions' on demand. Currently it's only done in really exceptional circumstances.

I'm not 100% pro choice, I think there needs to be the 24 week cut off. Because 'aborting' a viable baby is traumatic for the mother and for the medical staff. It is also a slippery slope. If it's OK to 'abort' an infant at 34 weeks, then why not wait until vaginal birth and 'abort' it after that? Why put the mother through a surgical slution when we could just 'abort' postnatally? It's a slippery slope and I don't like it.

I do also think prison is right for her because as a society we need to send the message that this is not acceptable.