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Original poster

Mum sentenced to 28 months in prison for abortion pills

867 replies

mumoftwobarnyboys · 12/06/2023 17:26

Used after the cut off point of 10 weeks.

Regardless of how far gone she was, surely this isn't right?

It is her body, despite me morally really thinking what she did was very wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/12/woman-in-uk-jailed-for-28-months-over-taking-abortion-pills-after-legal-time-limit?CMP=twtgu&utmmsource=Twitter&utmmedium=&s=08#Echobox=1686577294

OP posts:
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6
AgathaSpencerGregson · 13/06/2023 17:24

And what is obvious nonsense is BPAS attempting to influence the judge not to apply the law. Not just nonsense, but disgraceful. They come out of this extremely badly, to any impartial observer.

Foxesandsquirrels · 13/06/2023 17:30

user9630721458 · 13/06/2023 15:41

@Foxesandsquirrels I expect some of it is about being cost effective, as abortion services are charities. I do agree with you though, that there is a language around abortion that trivialises it to the level of a consumer health product, like colonic irrigation or something. Maybe capitalism is to blame.

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. It's very tricky to get the balance right, as you don't want to make it such a big deal where you're proving the anti abortion lot right, but equally it's horrifically depressing how trivialised it's become, to the point it's far more difficult to get access to antibiotics.

Singlespies · 13/06/2023 17:31

A custodial sentence is ridiculous. Men get less for rape and sexual assault. Abortion should be legal up to birth so that women feel safe looking for help and advice. Very few women would choose a late term abortion (it is traumatic). Abortion should be between a woman and her doctors and the law should have nothing to do with it. And, actually, can a woman be forced to carry a foetus until birth? Pregnancy and birth are dangerous for women. Again, the law should have nothing to do with these personal and very difficult decisions.

WarmWinterSun · 13/06/2023 17:33

@Singlespies She had to give birth anyway so it was not a question of being forced or not forced to give birth. Her choice was to give birth to a stillborn.

Singlespies · 13/06/2023 17:35

IJustHadToLookHavingReadTheBook · 13/06/2023 16:21

I posted on this thread last night but my thoughts have evolved- mainly due to Shelagh Fogarty's phone in on LBC this afternoon, well worth a listen on catch up- so wanted to add something else.

I think that the way that Carla Foster was thinking about and googling her pregnancy was less like someone premeditating a crime and more like someone finding a lump in their breast that they're worried is cancer but can't face seeing a doctor about. She knew it was a problem, she knew there was going to be an awful outcome (for her, obviously a baby can be a blessing but not if you don't want it for whatever reason) and she knew it wasn't going away, but she couldn't face properly dealing with it and then by the time it was totally necessary to do something, lockdown happened and other mechanisms that might have picked up her mental state/concealing a pregnancy/whatever other problems she had weren't happening and therefore there was no intervention.

I think that to Foster the pregnancy was like a growing cancer or potentially fatal illness that she was ignoring. I believe that her actions were as desperate and mad as somebody drinking battery acid to cure AIDS because they heard a mad rumour that it worked. The way she behaved was irrational and mad and she did lie to get those pills, but I suspect that she was so far gone mentally speaking that she didn't think that she had a choice.

I don't believe that it was It like murdering a child, it didn't come from the same place as doing that and didn't involve the same heartlessness as strangling a baby or poisoning a baby. It was about ending the pregnancy, not the baby. Even to those of us who most want a baby, pregnancy is pretty abstract, even when we've previously had a baby. I never thought of my babies as real people until they were born and in my arms. And by his sounds of it, the reality of that dead baby hit her hard once she gave birth to it (judges remarks talk about her being haunted by the baby's face).

Full disclosure, although I don't think I'm that unusual in this; I do believe in abortion on demand and probably in later term abortion as a choice if necessary (I am conflicted about this with the advances in neonatal technology, but with that aside I do generally think women should be allowed to abort whenever they feel they need to for whatever reason).

What you have said rings true. Many people felt desperate when the covid restrictions prevented us living a life with its usual support systems.

Foxesandsquirrels · 13/06/2023 17:36

Singlespies · 13/06/2023 17:31

A custodial sentence is ridiculous. Men get less for rape and sexual assault. Abortion should be legal up to birth so that women feel safe looking for help and advice. Very few women would choose a late term abortion (it is traumatic). Abortion should be between a woman and her doctors and the law should have nothing to do with it. And, actually, can a woman be forced to carry a foetus until birth? Pregnancy and birth are dangerous for women. Again, the law should have nothing to do with these personal and very difficult decisions.

I think this is a very complex and slippery slope. There has to be a balance made. The prenatal care many women receive is appalling and has led to deaths of babies. Needless deaths. Are those NHS trusts not responsible just because it's not what is classed as a baby? The law is there to protect, if you don't like it, petition for it to change.
The amount of time someone spends in prison for rape and sexual assault is nothing to do with this. If you want that changed, petition for it to change. The judge can only work with the law that's been given to him.

Whiskeypowers · 13/06/2023 17:37

@AgathaSpencerGregson

“I remain suspicious that they are making this noise to distract from their role in promoting pills by post.”

I can’t help but think this too. I am agog that this has been possible. Any amount of margins for error and catastrophic outcomes. So so stupid. At the very least it should be absolutely essential to clinically conclude exactly how pregnant a woman is: clearly under seven weeks and over 24 weeks are generally immediately physically obvious.

Singlespies · 13/06/2023 17:40

caringcarer · 13/06/2023 11:50

If it achieved just one other woman doing the same it is worth it. This woman could have gone to her GP and asked for an abortion. There is just no excuse for her behaviour..

Show quote history

Could she have accessed support, though. During the covid restrictions I had 4 dentist's appointment cancelled and it was impossible to get through to a GP.
She had children at home - she was probably so stressed.

AgathaSpencerGregson · 13/06/2023 17:45

Singlespies · 13/06/2023 17:31

A custodial sentence is ridiculous. Men get less for rape and sexual assault. Abortion should be legal up to birth so that women feel safe looking for help and advice. Very few women would choose a late term abortion (it is traumatic). Abortion should be between a woman and her doctors and the law should have nothing to do with it. And, actually, can a woman be forced to carry a foetus until birth? Pregnancy and birth are dangerous for women. Again, the law should have nothing to do with these personal and very difficult decisions.

Guideline sentence for rape is five years so no, generally, you don’t get less for rape.
laughing also at the suggestion the law should have nothing to do with abortion. I prefer my doctors regulated by law, thanks.

Saschka · 13/06/2023 17:51

People seem to be imagining she couldn’t access a legal abortion due to lockdown - she passed the 24 week limit for an abortion some time towards the end of Feb 2020, long before lockdown started. Covid is a complete red herring, except it gave her the opportunity to order the pills.

Topictwenty · 13/06/2023 17:55

Saschka · 13/06/2023 17:51

People seem to be imagining she couldn’t access a legal abortion due to lockdown - she passed the 24 week limit for an abortion some time towards the end of Feb 2020, long before lockdown started. Covid is a complete red herring, except it gave her the opportunity to order the pills.

Ah, I hadn’t realised that. I too was assuming that lockdown played a huge part in this

CBAironing · 13/06/2023 18:04

Abortion should be available as early as possible and as late as necessary. Absolutely disgusted that she has been sentenced.

user9630721458 · 13/06/2023 18:06

Abortion should be available as early as possible and as late as necessary. Absolutely disgusted that she has been sentenced.

I think it is in the UK.

Bananananananananana · 13/06/2023 18:07

Singlespies · 13/06/2023 17:31

A custodial sentence is ridiculous. Men get less for rape and sexual assault. Abortion should be legal up to birth so that women feel safe looking for help and advice. Very few women would choose a late term abortion (it is traumatic). Abortion should be between a woman and her doctors and the law should have nothing to do with it. And, actually, can a woman be forced to carry a foetus until birth? Pregnancy and birth are dangerous for women. Again, the law should have nothing to do with these personal and very difficult decisions.

Rapists need greater sentences.

The abortion law at present allows more than enough time for non-medical contexts

MichelleScarn · 13/06/2023 18:09

CBAironing · 13/06/2023 18:04

Abortion should be available as early as possible and as late as necessary. Absolutely disgusted that she has been sentenced.

What's decided as 'necessary' though? Can't be arsed anymore to be a parent at 38 weeks?

CBAironing · 13/06/2023 18:11

@MichelleScarn Your body your choice.

Saschka · 13/06/2023 18:14

Topictwenty · 13/06/2023 17:55

Ah, I hadn’t realised that. I too was assuming that lockdown played a huge part in this

Show quote history

Counting back 32-34 weeks from 10th May, she became pregnant in Sept 2019. She had at least 6 months to get an abortion (or even just antenatal care) before lockdown.

Foxesandsquirrels · 13/06/2023 18:32

Saschka · 13/06/2023 18:14

Counting back 32-34 weeks from 10th May, she became pregnant in Sept 2019. She had at least 6 months to get an abortion (or even just antenatal care) before lockdown.

Show quote history

Yup. She used COVID as an opportunity to get the pills. I dread to think what she would've done without them.

twoandcooplease · 13/06/2023 18:45

@MyTruthIsOut this is the judges comments it makes it much easier to follow I think

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/R-v.-Foster-sentencing-remarks-12.6.23.pdf

MichelleScarn · 13/06/2023 18:49

CBAironing · 13/06/2023 18:11

@MichelleScarn Your body your choice.

If you really think that termination of a healthy pregnancy at 38 weeks because a mother 'can't be arsed' is ok, I feel sorry for you.

Itisyourturntowashthebath · 13/06/2023 18:51

Abortion should be available as early as possible and as late as necessary.

Generally I agree with this statement. An abortion at 32 weeks necessitates giving birth, the choices are giving birth to a live baby or a dead baby. Having a caesarean, a vaginal birth or a surgical removal via the vagina. I can see many medical people having issues with some of these methods, it is a distressing bunch of choices.

If a foetus is not a baby until the first breath, there is another problem. There is a small window for abortion after the baby has exited the birth canal. Is it OK to kill them quick?

Cases like this one risk more regulations being brought in by typical knee jerk reactions. It also shows that the two doctors and time restrictions are generally pretty good, if women behave like adults and take part in their own healthcare.

Flowersun6 · 13/06/2023 18:54

Clymene · 12/06/2023 17:39

If you're judging a woman for having an abortion at any time for any reason, you're not fully pro choice.

I don't agree with you. It sounds like a desperate thing to do though and bordering not normal.

I've not read the link so I don't know the back story. It was wrong though there's no doubt about her actions do need to be highlighted we can't just be ignorant and and saying "you're not pro choice"

Topictwenty · 13/06/2023 18:59

twoandcooplease · 13/06/2023 18:45

@MyTruthIsOut this is the judges comments it makes it much easier to follow I think

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/R-v.-Foster-sentencing-remarks-12.6.23.pdf

Yes that’s helpful thank you. Also explains why she wasn’t given a suspended sentence, because she hadn’t pleaded guilty so that wasn’t an option legally

CBAironing · 13/06/2023 19:07

@MichelleScarn Pro choice is abortion freely available. Whether you’re 3 weeks or 33 weeks, if you no longer want to be pregnant and don’t want to have the baby, you should be able to terminate. If you ‘can’t be arsed’ to parent (and let’s be honest there’s usually more to it than this!) or have realised your partner is abusive, or have just been made homeless, I could go on and on…pro choice is pro choice. The majority of people who terminate at late stage will be absolutely desperate.

MyTruthIsOut · 13/06/2023 19:10

twoandcooplease · 13/06/2023 18:45

@MyTruthIsOut this is the judges comments it makes it much easier to follow I think

www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/R-v.-Foster-sentencing-remarks-12.6.23.pdf

Thank you very much for that, I shall have a read through it once I’ve got my children to bed 👍

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