Mum sentenced to 28 months in prison for abortion pills

[mumoftwobarnyboys]

Used after the cut off point of 10 weeks.

Regardless of how far gone she was, surely this isn't right?

It is her body, despite me morally really thinking what she did was very wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/12/woman-in-uk-jailed-for-28-months-over-taking-abortion-pills-after-legal-time-limit?CMP=twtgu&utmmsource=Twitter&utmmedium=&s=08#Echobox=1686577294

JustGeorgie I imagine there to be trauma and intense emotions at the late stage
it’s usually mental illness, distress or abnormalities at the late stage

What? The view that you should go down the legal route of having an abortion not leave it until 32 + weeks then take some tablets and lie about how far along you are . Well whatever

Honestly, do you not distinguish between aborting a 13 week pregnancy and a 33 week pregnancy?

MakesMeFeelSad no idea what you’re talking about
on that note, farewell

That doesn't surprise me

7eleven yes and no
life isn’t clear cut
all I know is that criminalisation of abortion harms our rights, that of women and girls
that’s why there are good doctors, midwives and nurses trying to change the law

on that note, farewell

MakesMeFeelSad seriously no idea
im not ducking anything
I’ve been highly engaged and sharing information
it’s time for sleep
good night

I accept that you feel very deep and genuine remorse for your actions. You are racked by guilt and have suffered depression. I also accept that you had a very deep emotional attachment to your unborn child and that you are plagued by nightmares and flashbacks to seeing your dead child’s face.”

And then she’s given a prison sentence? Ffs. This is too harsh. And it’s a Harsh punishment for her children as well. Many people feel 32 weeks is too late to abort a child. For me, 32 weeks seems too late. That’s what is right for me. But we don’t all think the same. I recognise other women think differently. Any women should ultimately have rights over her own body.

The trouble is that irresponsible violent men don’t always show themselves to be so, straight away. Some male violence only becomes apparent when the women is pregnant, when the man feels she is dependent on her and sees her as vulnerable enough to hit but that she won’t leave.

and we do have contraception but two things - life is messy and chaotic just as humans can be. And contraception can be very problematic for some people. The pill caused me to have hemiplegic migraines - half your body becomes numb and paralysed. And I got pregnant twice with IUDs - once with the IUD in place, and once I had lost it and not realised.

Yep there are always condoms, quite effective, but people are human so don’t always do what they should.

I agree- That's way too late to be having an abortion.

Goodness knows what pain the foetus felt- He or she would have had a functioning nervous system at that stage, able to feel pain.

Very early 'Morning after' pills are completely different.

Why on earth didn't the woman seek help long before covid came into being?

Not a young woman either..She has children already so clearly knew what being pregnant feels like.

She's no naïve teenager on her first pregnancy.

Jail isn't appropriate though.

She absolutely should be punished! She knowingly mislead health professionals. The fact is she deliberately murdered her child. She knew what the outcome of the pills would be & she did it anyway. Her sentence isn't long enough.

The whole thing sounds horrific. She must have been desperate, and I think it's better to be understanding as that's probably how babies end up being left in dumpsters. I'm normally extremely judgemental, but I'm leaving judgement in this case

Me too. And I think a custodial sentence is appropriate. She was 32 weeks ffs.

I started to read the thread earlier but found it so triggering I didn't get to the end. hence I can't sleep now 🙈

I had a medical termination very late, because my baby was so poorly and wouldn't have survived.
I'm always wondering what if? He had a few rare conditions and we were
reassured by all my doctors and consultants at a large children's hospital that my baby, in the likelihood he survived, would have been severely disabled and need round the clock care, or would pass away shortly after he was born.

I made my choice, but, we had a crazily strict timeframe. The doctors told me the legal implications of having any kind of abortion after 24/weeks was a no go, in any circumstances, no matter how poorly my baby was etc. So I gave birth to him at 23+6 days.

But, in a hospital, with pain relief, hormone drips, my husband. I can't describe the pain I still feel losing my son, but it was the right thing to do. I had to give birth exactly the same as if he were full term, dilate enough etc, had an epidural. SO..all my me, me, me, is building up to saying I can't imagine what that lady went through, on her own, with pills from the internet. But it makes me so, so thankful that I had so many wonderful midwives, consultants and family their for me. There aren't any winners in her story, and I know women that haven't bothered to see a midwife when they were pregnant throughout. I just feel awful sadness for her family and her. Right or wrong, desperate people take desperate measures I guess, and I've not lived a day in her shoes, let alone months experiencing what she did.

She deserves to go to prison for what she did. It is abhorrent. I fully support on demand abortion (although I am on the fence about when that right should end - it should certainly end before viability). I do not support killing babies. At 32 weeks that it what she did. She killed her unborn baby. I cannot be persuaded otherwise unless there is clear evidence that she was genuinely mentally unsound at the time and in that case she needs to be institutionalized.

According to some posters we should really change the definition:

Woman. n. type of human who has infallible wisdom, is immune from making mistakes, and can always be trusted to make the right choices.

@WouldYouLikeACrabPuff 🌺

Any point any reason? So do you think that there will be many medics keen to abort a healthy baby at 37 weeks gestation 'just because'?

I agree that she isn’t well and needs support, however she should have accessed this and gone down proper channels, by having an abortion before the cut off and/or seeking mental health support . To all defending her and her right to abort would you be saying the same if the baby had been born premature at 32/34 weeks and she then killed them? Because the baby is no different developmentally.

Your situation was very different.
The baby you had was given pain relief as were you.
I am sorry you had to suffer that loss.

This situation with the 44 yr old woman was different- Far too late to terminate humanely by the method she chose- Plus all the googling she did about aborting a late term fetus.

There is a world of differences between your situation and hers.

This is an extremely rare event but I do fear that it implants in the public mind a connection between abortion medication and criminality. There may have been many women watching the news considering abortion whose views on the subject may be influenced by this piece in that it may prompt them to think of their early foetus in weeks time or are triggered by the moral wrong of 'destruction of a child'.

The tragic nature of this case should not result in stigmatisation of abortion and some of the more extreme reactions here show that this may be the case. Attaching the word 'murder' to abortion no matter the length of gestation or the behaviour of the mother is a concern in my opinion.

The case on a human level creates a visceral response unavoidably but on a population level of shouldn't be allowed to influence our current abortion law or very importantly frame any type of abortion as a moral wrong. Sympathy for a foetus could be extended to earlier gestation and these attitudes are the seeds for the equivalent of the overthrow of Roe v Wade in the US. We do not exactly mirror the US but there must be some conservatives that will latch onto this tragic case and use it the outrage for their own agenda.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-65886472

I was thinking of the language used here. An illegal'abortion' was performed. By definition abortion means to stop a process i.e. that of foetal development; it is not murdsr. Murder is a specific crime against a human being from a legal perspective and so is an emotive and incorrect term.

By ascribing criminality to woman who aborts a foetus in principle creates the position that aborting a foetus is morally wrong and in certain circumstances should bring punitive consequences in that a decision has been made to maliciously harm a human being i.e. the unborn child. What precedent does this set?.What is the signal to the tens of thousands of women who undergo abortions every year.

I agree there are visceral emotive responses to this case but looking dispassionately at the bigger societal picture we cannot let this judgment influence the right and moral right for women to have abortii ions. Abortions per se aren't criminal.

But an abortion at 32 weeks absent specific medical reasons is (rightly) criminal.

What would you say if the father of an unborn child stabbed the pregnant mother in the stomach at 32 weeks gestation, thereby killing the unborn baby? The specific legal terminology for that crime may not be “murder” but in layman’s terms that is what it boils down to.

It does women a huge disservice to absolve this woman from blame. You can be pro choice but also pro-enforcing the law. She knowingly terminated a baby at 32 weeks. She deserves to be punished unless she is of unsound mind, in which case she requires medical treatment.

@Fingerscrossedfor2021HK

with the stabbing example there is a clear act of malicious harm being directed at both mother and child and rightly punishable in a criminal sense. As I said a murder has not been commited ; that is a specific legal definition and it is wrong and emotive to use that term. Regardless of the term of gestation an abortion albeit illegal occurred and in the hearing as far as I can see there has been no mention of the word 'murder'. Judges often refer to the mendacity of criminals but in this case the censure was limited to the deception in the act and not necessarily the act itself. The judge invited Parliament to discuss the matter of law needed changing.

I think an emotive point is that a foetus is not the same as a baby when it comes to this debate as that begs the question when does a baby become a baby, 32 weeks, 24 weeks, 12 weeks. At each of these ages there is a degree of 'being human, and the potential of being a baby. I think the word 'baby' in itself requires caution when discussing an extremely complex subject like abortion.

Can I ask if you feel there is a spectrum of morality in terms of abortion and gestational age? At one extreme there is no moral wrong doing in taking the morning after pill but at 32 weeks a heinous act is commited? Where does this leave 12 week abortions, a little bit wrong?

I mean, if you can’t see the moral difference between an abortion at 12 weeks and terminating a viable healthy baby at 32 weeks then I can’t help you.