Page 5 | Working or Middle Class?

WedTheBed · 2023-05-01T02:36:30+00:00

What’s the difference between them? As in.. what does one have to be middle class that working class don’t have? I was talking to my friend, and I made a comment about being working class which she looked at me in shock and said I’m not working class, I’m middle.. but I don’t know how. I feel like we don’t really have anything to show to be middle class?😂 light hearted* I’m just interested to see what people interpret.

Sudeko · 01/05/2023 08:27

Hairbrushhandle · 01/05/2023 06:11

Civil service is not a working class job. Or maybe we should go and tell all those Oxbridge fast steamers that and see how they take it. It's white collar and often a professional role so middle class.

In answer to op. Class is fluid and comprised of wealth, the type of people in your social circle and the type of norms and behaviours you develop (watch Corrie or the opera). You can change your class along any of these lines which means you could win the lottery but still hang around the pub with your old working class mates and go for a chippy tea. It's then subjective as to whether you'd still be working class or not.

Ridiculous. A younger family member is on the Fast track with an Oxford first and she is definitely not the only one in her cohort. I know that local government menial jobs also count as civil service jobs but surely it is not difficult to understand that if you are a trainee at say, the FCO it is with a view to eventually becoming a diplomat rather than a cleaner?

Reugny · 01/05/2023 08:33

willWillSmithsmith · 01/05/2023 08:23

Surely civil servants are white collar workers, managers, accountants etc pretty middle class I would say. My dad worked in the civil service but it was in the mailroom and we were working class.

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Some civil servants are administrators. I presume the poster means these civil servants are working class.

However the administrators do have area specific knowledge e.g. VAT returns, certain benefits. Some are also using the jobs as a stepping stone to get into higher roles where they can use their degrees.

Notanothernewname · 01/05/2023 08:33

Working class like football, middle-class like tennis, cricket and rugby. Rugby season finishes, tennis and cricket season starts.

I don't think you can judge on money these days and I think even the traditional jobs are no longer a good way to judge now more people go to university. It's probably a good thing as well.

SweetSakura · 01/05/2023 08:33

redbuttontop · 01/05/2023 06:29

It's all so daft now. I personally don't think there is much of a middle class left since 'uneducated' manual jobs such as builders could and do earn more than many 'middle class' roles. Believing in the class system is what keeps it propped up. In the end we're all slaves unless we don't have to work at all. I know ok it's not only about earnings but there's very little that divides anyone in the U.K. once you earn well anyway.

I spend most of my week with so called upper class people and it makes me realise so called wc and mc are basically all the same to them, they have little interest in getting to know you unless you're of some use to them.

The class system is so antiquated now and quite pointless in the modern era, I hope it diminishes to nothing eventually as all this division is meant to make the top look like they are more relevant than they really are.

Agreed.

All the muddy dog walks and conversations about Plato in the world won't stop the upper classes lumping MC and WC in together.

People often cling frantically to the cultural signifiers of class as they decline (relatively ) in position economically though. Hence the insistence on a wealthy builder being "WC" because they watch love island or whatever, while a doctor's daughter scratching a living in rented accommodation must be MC because they have books on the wall and an opinion about art

It's all trivia at the end of the day , what really matters is where the power and capital sits

(And I say that as someone in a MC profession and whose family has been solidly middle class for generations.)

willWillSmithsmith · 01/05/2023 08:34

mindutopia · 01/05/2023 08:20

Sociologist here, class in the UK has not so much to do with what job you do or even necessarily what jobs your parents did, but about identity and social and cultural capital (the knowledge, experiences, networks you can call on to navigate your way in society).

For example, Dh’s parents had jobs that are borderline wc/mc but he went to private school (lots of financial support from family and a bursary), he went to uni, has a business in a traditional ‘trade’ (if you were to look at him, you’d assume he’s wc because it’s manual and he comes home filthy), but makes well over £100k a year, even as a ‘poor student’ was travelling, taking part in sports that are quite mc (think skiing, diving, etc). All friends very mc due to social networks growing up and in uni.

It’s much more complex than just what you do for work, particularly as most of our socialising takes place outside of work, within family/via other family members.

Also I feel it’s not just economic but what’s ingrained in you. Although I am working class as in my childhood was typical working class, (non professional parents, council estate etc), over the years my outward standing has been more middle class, own my own home, holidays abroad in 4/5* hotels, children went to private school etc but I never feel middle class. My working class roots are too embedded and I can clearly see the differences in manner between someone who is solidly middle class and me. It would be like comparing Joanna Lumley with Julie Walters.

Soapyspuds · 01/05/2023 08:36

I dislike the so called class system it is some imaginary thing that seems only to be used by certain people to try and elevate themselves over others. The only acquaintances I know of that refer to it often come out with comments such like

We have a cleaner im sooo middle class fake laughs
I live in a village/market town I am sooo middle class fake laughs

It is extremely cringy

Reugny · 01/05/2023 08:38

Notanothernewname · 01/05/2023 08:33

Working class like football, middle-class like tennis, cricket and rugby. Rugby season finishes, tennis and cricket season starts.

I don't think you can judge on money these days and I think even the traditional jobs are no longer a good way to judge now more people go to university. It's probably a good thing as well.

Wrong.

Seen the price of football tickets or a sky sports subscription?

Last year I had some trades in. They played rugby rather than football as youths.

The local lads who play football near me go to private schools.

SweetSakura · 01/05/2023 08:39

Reugny · 01/05/2023 08:08

Wrong.

Some of the people I hang out with are definitely upper middle class due to their up bringing and own jobs.

They like and actually prefer the WC items you mentioned, and in some cases e.g. panto and Shakespeare see both as of equal cultural value.

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Agreed. I went to the panto this year with my dad (a senior member of the judiciary) and we must have bumped into half a dozen of his colleagues at the interval! Of course they would probably also go to more serious theatrical productions too, but sensible, secure, middle class people tend to just enjoy life and not obsess over cultural signifiers

ShoesoftheWorld · 01/05/2023 08:40

'People often cling frantically to the cultural signifiers of class as they decline (relatively ) in position economically though. Hence the insistence on a wealthy builder being "WC" because they watch love island or whatever, while a doctor's daughter scratching a living in rented accommodation must be MC because they have books on the wall and an opinion about art.'

This. MC reprise of the old concept of genteel poverty and the dismissal of people as 'new money'.

Reugny · 01/05/2023 08:40

@Notanothernewname should say that's union not league.

AspinallaSmythe · 01/05/2023 08:42

YaWeeFurryBastard · 01/05/2023 06:05

Yes doctor/lawyer/accountant is middle class. Nurse is a working class job as is civil servant unless you’re the PM!

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Disagree with this. Civil Servants include accountants, diplomats, Co Secs, lawyers etc., etc. You can’t apply a working class brush to the CS.

Fizbosshoes · 01/05/2023 08:42

I'm educated to A levels, DH has only a few GCSEs. Both our jobs would be described as skilled manual labour which would possibly put us into a working class category but when I've done quizzes we come out as middle class.

To be honest I'm not entirely sure why it matters or what I'm supposed to do with this info!

Notanothernewname · 01/05/2023 08:43

Reugny · 01/05/2023 08:38

Wrong.

Seen the price of football tickets or a sky sports subscription?

Last year I had some trades in. They played rugby rather than football as youths.

The local lads who play football near me go to private schools.

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Traditionally rugby is a middle class sport, even members of England Rugby team admit that. Maro Itoje did a brilliant documentary on his rise to England player and he admits he is not the norm as most are white middle class privately educated.

Arginalia · 01/05/2023 08:44

Note that the BBC 'class calculator' is from 2013. You might want to adjust your income/savings/house value downwards to account for inflation. It's just given me a somewhat optimistic picture of my 'class'.

Reugny · 01/05/2023 08:45

ShoesoftheWorld · 01/05/2023 08:40

'People often cling frantically to the cultural signifiers of class as they decline (relatively ) in position economically though. Hence the insistence on a wealthy builder being "WC" because they watch love island or whatever, while a doctor's daughter scratching a living in rented accommodation must be MC because they have books on the wall and an opinion about art.'

This. MC reprise of the old concept of genteel poverty and the dismissal of people as 'new money'.

Big joke is that the "wealthy builder" may actually have a MC up bringing.

I have had a couple of well spoken tradesmen in the last few years. Their bosses aren't as well spoken.

I also know some who is MC due to his upbringing who is training as a builder.

Easterbunnywashere · 01/05/2023 08:45

It is impossible to get away from classifications, but these days class is less important. The NRS uses jobs alone to define social grade for targeting particular markets:

https://nrs.co.uk/nrs-print/lifestyle-and-classification-data/social-grade/

This link also lists various other methods of classification.

Social Grade | National Readership Survey

https://nrs.co.uk/nrs-print/lifestyle-and-classification-data/social-grade

frozendaisy · 01/05/2023 08:49

Boomboom22 · 01/05/2023 08:19

It's often said you don't change class but your kids do. So even after uni etc wc remain wc but their kids are mc. Can go the other way too.

If it's down to the kids we are definitely feral

Flowersun6 · 01/05/2023 08:53

frozendaisy · 01/05/2023 07:34

Actually you could say this year middle class was if you could put the heating on during winter.

Yeah requirements to be middle class are going rapidly downhill. Nothing to celebrate really

What exactly would you like to celebrate? Being MC doesn't make you a cut abouve the rest.

frozendaisy · 01/05/2023 08:54

Reugny · 01/05/2023 08:21

On these threads when you do cultural comparisons they have to be called out for being shit otherwise foreign posters believe such stereotypes.

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Surely anyone with half a brain cell doesn't base their knowledge on a public forum board. Any old upper class feral can write what the balls they like on these things.

It should be a disclaimer if it's that important.

Adelaide66 · 01/05/2023 08:55

Class difference is antiquated. How you chose to spend your money was an indicator as was the way you spoke and the ease you fitted in to stratums of society.
Praise be if we accepted people on their compassion and humility.

nidgey · 01/05/2023 09:00

YaWeeFurryBastard · 01/05/2023 06:05

Yes doctor/lawyer/accountant is middle class. Nurse is a working class job as is civil servant unless you’re the PM!

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Civil servant certainly isn't working class! There have been countless articles on how there's a desire to change recruitment as the cs recruits so overwhelmingly from the middle classes/upper middle classes

https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/05/20/britains-civil-service-remains-upper-middle-class

Britain’s civil service remains upper-middle class

Not so much has changed since the 1960s, a new report says

https://www.economist.com/britain/2021/05/20/britains-civil-service-remains-upper-middle-class

crossstitchingnana · 01/05/2023 09:01

pompomdaisy · 01/05/2023 06:04

This is basic A level sociology

Working class
Those individuals engaged in manual work, often having low levels of educational achievement. The classic, traditional working class jobs include heavy labouring and factory based work.
Middle class
Those individuals engaged in non-manual work, often having higher levels of educational achievement. Classic middle class jobs include everything from doctors and lawyers to clerical workers.

But I would say, for eg, a care assistant or call centre employee are WC too. These days it isn't just manual Labour.

frozendaisy · 01/05/2023 09:04

Flowersun6 · 01/05/2023 08:53

What exactly would you like to celebrate? Being MC doesn't make you a cut abouve the rest.

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I know that.

Arguments about class in my tiny little life only pop up on MN forums.

And they seem to have a "well I'm better than some/most/you" undertone. And it's all nonsense really.

I'm being "marked" for flippant cultural references, which is very funny, and called out for trying to lower the tone, which again is very funny.

It's a hard life at the bottom of the pile as a feral. Just trying to work out if it's worth the effort attempting to climb the greasy class pole. I'm thinking not! :-)

ichundich · 01/05/2023 09:07

Oopswediditagain2023 · 01/05/2023 07:47

I did my dissertation on this. Basically my definition is that it's based on your background. You can of course go up the ladder if you wish, but being WC has a unique set of positive values that you're brought up with. As PP said, "helping your neighbour" would be one, old fashioned values that are ingrained in WC culture. Whereas MC is generally more individualistic as a rule.

Where did you do your research? In my experience it's mostly middle class people who take on voluntary roles for example.

SpringTimeCartwheels · 01/05/2023 09:08

Again?