What education system is the most gruelling & intensive in Europe? I've heard the German, Swiss, Austrian & Russian systems are very tough.

[Stellanotbud]

Just pondering!

Interesting question

I'm Irish & we've never lived abroad. Just interesting from speaking to neighbours & family members over the years how the education systems compare.. Our Russian neighbours find the Irish system very simple especially our maths & science syllabuses. They also said much more emphasis is placed on art, literature, languages (usually English) & music in Russian schools.. Polish neighbours say similar..

As an Eastern European, my friend did up to and including 4th year at home and then did 6th year here and then took the leaving cert.
I think it's not limited to the east, the French system is quite hard I understand as well.

Well we do have Irish from JI so another language on top of that from an early age would be a stretch.

@Chickenkeev yes that's true but Irish provisions really vary from school to school unless of course the kids were in a Gaelscoil..

Interesting.

In what way are they hard? Or harder than the English system?

I ask because I find the amount we have to cover and the number of objectives to be ridiculous but my issue is more about what we teach and what's deemed important. I think there is a lot that we teach that is pointless or we attempt to teach it too young and it would be picked up much more quickly in the year above and the time could be better used.

Eg key learning in numeracy that was missed during lockdown. Some of the topics, we would have spent a week/fortnight teaching and consolidating in summer term year 2 but by spring year 3, they only needed a couple of days to learn it.

I'm in primary.

Afaik there's a curriculum for Irish tho, fairly standard. I think it would be hard to introduce another language (in a non Gaelscoil) without eating into science, history, geography etc. In primary school anyway. And fwiw (personal opinion) i think they should devote a decent amount of time to Irish, it's easier to learn another language when you've done a second one. But that said, it's my personal opinion, there's a big debate atm about Irish being mandatory.

I work with lots of international graduates and the most polished and impressive for me are the Germans. Granted they study at longer typically but they present as very credible whereas our UK graduates are often much less impressive.

French grads similarly impressive but the Germans just have an edge IMO

@Chickenkeev my three are in a Gaelscoil & love it! I do think Irish should remain mandatory.. My eldest is moving onto a Gaelcholáiste in September & will have the option of three MFL, will be interesting to see how he picks up another language ..

Even from visiting Germany you can tell it's a well educated country. The youth have perfect English & are very happy to converse.. At least they were in Berlin!
I understand Germany is a very tough system with copious amounts of homework.

I think many more regimented & stricter overall. Much more homework.

My little bro went to gaelscoil and gaelcholaiste. Never displayed a great talent for languages but had no interest (the enforcement of the language and punishment for the odd english word put him off, we spoke english at home). He works for a major global multinational now. The gaeilge definitely stood to him, in more ways than one.

Thanks @Chickenkeev that's good to know that he got good benefits out of it.. We had sleepless nights deciding about the local secondary & the Gaelcholáiste 😩

I think the German education system sounds fantastic. My brother is over there and I am so impressed by what my nieces are getting.

I am a teacher in Scotland.... from a very generalised experience, Polish and Nigerian families are very keen on their children achieving and seem generally well educated.

One thing I understand about the French and some Eastern European countries, is that they have many more subjects, like 12..
E.g. the French would take philosophy one year in secondary school.
Not clear whether they sit end of school exams in a few of the subjects or a lot.

This is my (most amateur) take on things but stay with me... imo learning a 2nd language and being forced to speak it forces you to be resourceful in your head. You can't think of the exact words to translate something, you have to think a way to speak around it so that you are understood. IYSWIM. I spent a year in France and they'd do anything to not understand you. So lots of mental gymnatics required. To be fair to them my accent was a bit shite 😅

For Germany, it really depends on federal state. There is everything between easy going and brutal.
The area i come from has a Grammar school system. At age 10 (so after 3.5 years of school) it is decided if you go to grammar school (which means university access is possible), or not. Theoretically you can work your way up, but i don’t know anybody who did. It is super difficult as the curriculum varies massively between the school types.

As its only 3.5 years of primary before the decision, about 90% of grammar school kids are from middle class and above households with engaged parents. in my cohort of 150 children finishing grammar school there was not a single child from a working class background, not a single child with divorced parents and certainly no immigrant children.
So, highly selective from an early age, wasting a lot of talent. People who make it through tend to be good, but the price is insane.
Other federal states have a comprehensive system and are much more accessible.

I am from Eastern Europe. We did 14 subjects in the last 3 years of school including 3 foreign languages and 6 hours maths a week. Students take exams in 4-6 subjects according to entrance requirements of the university course they wish to attend but must achieve a pass (60%) in all 14 subjects to graduate.

In judging any education system, you need to look at its provision for everyone- the advantaged and the disadvantaged; rural and urban; all ethnic minorities; all SEN and none - not just the absolute standard attained by the elite.

The PISA international comparison, for example, is fundamentally flawed because it allows countries to be selective in who takes the tests.

Equally, judging the German system by an encounter with some able students in Berlin is flawed if it does not balance this with students, perhaps from refugee or Roma families, who have perhaps attended the ‘lower tier’ schools in economically deprived areas of Germany with selective schools. Equally, balance Russian education of wealthy families in Leningrad or Moscow with the experience of families from oppressed minorities deep in the Eastern rural regions.

That's brutal!

@justme202 if I am correct Austria & Switzerland have a very similar system?

It is very tough! In Ireland we generally do 7 subject for the leaving.. Some kids do 8 taking an extra subject outside of school

I thought Germany had a multi-tier system, with only some people on very academic track and others being channelled (ideally) to high skill vocational/technical/blue collar jobs. Like Northern Ireland grammar/other system.

What proportion of all students follow this sort of pathway? What happens if it isn’t suitable for a particular child, and at what age is this identified / are children selected for the most ‘academic’ pathway? What proportion go on to university, and what is the quality of non-university post-school education and employment?

I only did the bare minimum 7 and that was enough. I can't imagine 14. Cruel.