What education system is the most gruelling & intensive in Europe? I've heard the German, Swiss, Austrian & Russian systems are very tough.

[Stellanotbud]

Just pondering!

@Chickenkeev me too! Only the bare 7 back in 2000😩 a couple of my year did applied maths for an eighth subject but I think that was needed for the uni course they wanted..

Surely it’s the depth x breadth question on 4 vs 7 vs 14 subjects? So 14 subjects each with the equivalent of an A level
in content is very different to 14 at or around GCSE level.

(I have 12 subjects at O level but only 4 at A level - the 12 were easier than the 4, because the lower level more than made up for the larger number)

I was '99 so feel your pain. As far as i'm concerned though, that was plenty to be getting on with. I don't feel the system was particularly lacking or anything. I went on to get a good degree and a good job. I crashed and burned without any input from my school or university 🤐

For sure. But there are probably also differences in how subjects are defined. I believe in some countries might have just Science whereas we would have had chemistry, physics, biology and geography all as separate subjects.

In their final year, but they stop doing French.

I spent some time with a 16 year old Ukrainian over Christmas, in the UK as a refugee. She is studying a GCSE programme in English, her third language and keeping up with her Ukrainian school's lessons round that on the Internet. As a teacher, it seemed to me that the Ukrainian material was much more challenging and this is also what she thought.

German educated here, it was fine for me but much like grammar schools in UK it is foolishly selective at a young age. This theory behind this is flawed, ignorant and disablist and should be disbanded. Our taxes should not be paying for institutions most kids cannot attend. In the same way our taxes should not pay for hospitals that only a select few ( who happened to be healthiest on a particular assessment) can attend. If the latter was the case, there would be uproar, naturally. Yet this is the case for selective state schools. I have no idea why they are not done away with a long time ago when it became apparent that the justification for them was so very incorrect

Friend from Switzerland was considered mediocre in Swiss university. When he went to Harvard he was top of his class. I don’t about other countries.

On the other hand, provision for those with a disability in Ukraine is woeful

https://www.bbc.com/news/disability-62226636.amp

It’s really important that we don’t get seduced by the performance of a few but consider the experience of all.

Swiss system is very academically selective - think grammar schools but so much harder
On the flip side those who don’t go to gymie (grammar) can do apprenticeships - more academic and more vocational. Without these apprenticeships - lehre- it is impossible to get jobs even as simple as working in a bakery.
In the Uk these are low skill jobs. In Switzerland even a bakery assistant will have done an apprenticeship so they have a certain standard and knowledge.
it also means there are few Saturdays jobs for teens. All the apprentices have them.
If you don’t do an apprentice instead you do that Matura. It has quite a few subjects and is the way to get ti university

You have to apply/test in to all the schemes/systems. Once you are keep a high performance or you will lose your place.

@lljkk theoretically this is true. Practically - no grammar school, no highly skilled apprenticeship . you have somewhat of a chance with the middle tier (Realschule), but its already severely limited.
it massively varies by federal state though, comprehensive school states are much better in terms of accessibility, but generally produce less “top level”. Grammar school states basically invest everything in about 30% of pupils selected age 10, and leave the rest behind.

Dd went into the French system at just 9.

At primary school, she had lessons until 4.30pm, no finishing at 3pm. And quite a lot of homework.
College, the first 4 years of secondary school, was later, probably 5pm. Lycée about the same.

With a longer school day they can obviously cover more.

@cantkeepawayforever indeed, but it was suddenly evident to me why that part of the world produces so many top mathematicians and scientists.

As a matter of fact it was mostly her work ethic that impressed me. She was absolutely determined to keep on top of her home courses, even though there is little prospect of her getting home any time soon.

But you cannot judge a school system by a single product, or even just by its most successful products. If it gets there by discarding so many, then is it on average a successful system or not? The work ethic of a single child is admirable - but if it is the result of a school system that means ‘moving down’ to a lesser school with instantly poorer future prospects as in Switzerland, is it a good or a bad thing?

My Russian & Polish neighbours are similar. They have a real interest in maths & the sciences (particularly psychics) & all have a desire for their dc to study engineering in uni... However the dc also do art & music outside school so are getting a broad education from the parents also.

Well, Switzerland is top of the Human Development Index so they must be doing some things right.

They have an hour and a half for lunch though, and that's a legal thing, so it's a longer day but better breaks.

German educated here. Yes, the selection is early and how you go along in secondary very much depends on the state you live in.
But on the other hand, starting school at 6 years means you are so much more settled and lots of development has happened, giving you a better start in my opinion.

But what really annoys me here in the UK is the very early loss of subjects in secondaray school.

DD is in Y11 and hasn't done music, arts, geography or RE since Y9 as she had no more space for GCSE options. PE is reduced to just twice a month. Her 6th form learning will just be three subjects, history, drama and sociology. No more maths, science, MFL or english taught at all.

My (and my friend's DD now) have a broader education until GCSE level and more mandatory subjects even if you don't have them as A-level subjects in Oberstufe (6th form).

Oh, and you still have 6 periods a day, you start earlier and finish around 1pm with plenty of time at home for homework and extra curricular activities.

@lljkk that's exactly what it does and what it is.

Grammar system on steroids.

Oh and in Germany within the states one degree or certificate doesn't matter as much as the next one.

Eg different standard

@newtb

I don't think having a longer day facilitates learning at all

@reluctantbrit I come from the Dutch system which is quite similar to the German system and is also academically selective at 11. When I was at secondary (I am 55) there were quite a few people who had streamed their way through the system after being placed in the GCSE-equivalent stream and so did the equivalent of A levels aged 21. That wasn't anything unusual. It's rarer now. The way subject choice is done has also changed. These days you pick a 'stream' (arts/creative, maths/science, Humanities, languages) and then within that you build your subject choices, but it isn't a completely free choice the way it was in my day.

I did a mixed set of 8 subjects at A level, failed Maths (but that was my 8th) and whether you passed or failed the exam year hinged on the distribution of your grades - you could borderline fail 2 subjects or fully fail 1 and still pass. I did 4 languages, Biology, Chemistry, Geography and Maths. I don't know how Dutch maths compares, but the language requirements were far, far higher than what is demanded at A level for MFL. For French, for example, we had to read a total of 15 books over 2 years, 3 of which had to be plays, 1 a volume of poetry, 1 from before 1800 and a further two dating from before 1900. German and English broadly similar, Dutch (obviously) more demanding still.

I think that the idea that you need a university education to have good prospects is a very English thing. About half my (10) Swiss cousins have university education, about have have done a Lehre (apprenticeship) - but in adult life the university educated, academic ones aren’t necessarily happier, better off or more fulfilled than the ones who did vocational study.
All of them speak English fluently- regardless of the type of school they went to. All of them have a good, broad range of education. Their education seems to have been rigorous and successful.
I agree with PP v early on here who said we try to do too much too soon here and children are often not developmentally able to retain the learning. (Also a primary school teacher).
But this is anecdotal not evidence based.