What education system is the most gruelling & intensive in Europe? I've heard the German, Swiss, Austrian & Russian systems are very tough.

[Stellanotbud]

Just pondering!

I live in Switzerland and think that the balance is actually very good. It’s slow to start with (my kids were well behind their cousins at the ages of six), and picks up with age. In the french speaking part at least, elementary school is until the age of 12, then middle school in which you are streamed for 3 or 4 years, and then either into an apprenticeship (non academic) or high school and university. However, apprentices can subsequently go on to university and it’s not a bar to a successful career or lifestyle - the former CEO of UBS (Sergio Ermotti) and the rail network were both apprentices. Foreign languages start at 8 (German) and a second one added at 10 (English). Regardless of whether the track is traditional education or an apprenticeship, I agree that it is generally pretty rigorous without being brutal. That being said, I don’t know how it would work for neurodiverse kids, or indeed, how it goes on the German speaking side.

Also the apprenticeship track is not necessarily the same as here. E.g. accountancy and nursing would be in it, rather than the grammar type track.

@cantkeepawayforever
Your questions made me chuckle! In my experience the answer would be: everyone had to follow this sort of curriculum. It was a standard when I was at school. As to uni, again, from my school year most of the kids went off to uni. It was indeed brutal but at least it toughened everyone up and prepared them for the "real world".

What about children with disabilities that affect learning? Those from minority ethnic groups within the community (eg Roma or refugees)?

What are the equivalent of Special Schools like?

My views on education changed radically through advocating for an autistic child with adhd.

It’s shocking that so many of these kids who are passionate about learning and knowledge, hate school and drop out, particularly when the 21st century economy needs their creative mindsets. Education needs to kick itself out of the Industrial Revolution and catch up quick.

And I think mandatory Irish is a disgrace when there is no resource provision whatsoever for those who struggle with it.
I just don’t understand why there isn’t an option for students entering the country after the age of 12 to learn it to the same level that the rest of Irish kids learn European languages. It makes no sense.

(As a child, I was not particularly aware of students with profound and multiple disabilities, with cerebral palsy or Downs’ syndrome that profoundly affected learning, or those who were ND, or even those who were deaf or blind. There was a reasonably comprehensive series of Special Schools where most children were accommodated, though in reading the history of such institutions I now understand how poor many of their experiences were. As a parent and teacher now, I am much more aware how many children are not ‘mainstream’ and very sensitive to whether they also have high quality tailored educational provision)

I have kids in the Dutch system now. The foreign language element is still demanding. It is possibly to stream up, but it does add a few years on. There definitely seem to be middle class parents engaging tutors etc to try and get kids into higher academic levels, even though the streaming from primary isn't purely based on academic results.

What I find insane is that in the most academic stream they do Ancient Greek and Latin on top of the normal MFLs. People keep telling me how important they are, but I actively don't want my kids to waste time on dead languages. They already leave school with t
Dutch, English, German and/or French (sometime Spanish). Dead European languages seem redundant on top of that! Given that Arabic is the second most spoken language here, that seems more important than Ancient Greek!

The higher academic levels do seem to pile on the homework which is a big adjustment after primary. There's virtually time for nothing else. But then the streaming for less academic children - gifted in other areas - seems so well done. My friend's daughter did cooking at high school, everything about running a restaurant kitchen. If she'd been in a school pushing academics, she'd have felt she was a failure, like at primary. She really thrives in the new environment. She's now at college studying design.

Interestingly the only person I know who is struggling after school went to a fee paying English-language school here, then did international relations at uni (taught in English here) and now seems relatively unemployable. The kids who took more vocational high school and post high school routes are all employed!

No system is perfect, and there are always people who fall between the gaps, but I think the Dutch do a good job of attempting to develop all children in ways that benefit both the children and society.

@DeKraai I agree with you, and I'm glad to hear that the Dutch system still values vocational education properly. That's something the UK could learn from.

I think it's a good thing that the MFL requirement is so demanding, because you come out actually able to speak, read and write in a language. The UK's provision is very poor, even at A level. I'm one of those people who has a language brain anyway, and I'm pretty fluent in all 4 of my languages (and bilingual in English/Dutch).

Does a system have to be grueling to achieve results?
I find the English (no idea about Scottish, assume Welsh is similar to English?) 'lighter' than the French one but find it creates more rounded, curious, creative and adaptable students.

In our Local area, there is a school for profoundly disabled children which seems well resourced.

Many many children in Switzerland (around 30% iirc) do not speak the school language at home. They will be supported through language learning. There are refugees in most schools including the fanciest areas of every city.

I don’t know the details of less visible disabilities, but it would appear that there is support for autistic kids too.

I don’t think the English system produces well rounded people at all.

My view is that in the subjects they do A levels they are as good as anywhere else, but the rest is closer to a black hole.

In my experience the answer would be: everyone had to follow this sort of curriculum. It was a standard when I was at school. As to uni, again, from my school year most of the kids went off to uni.

I was responding to this comment - did everyone really follow the stringently academic curriculum described, or was this really just everyone like me, who attended a school like mine? As I have said often now, judging an education system by its most able and privileged products is not necessarily valid as a reflection of the experience of all.

That's what I mean it's a broader education so to speak. I'd imagine the lifestyle in Switzerland facilities this, the Swiss are known for being "outdoorsy" like the Austrians, German & Dutch.. Only a good thing for children.

i recall to get an A in Croatia, it was 90 or 95%. A B was 80% upwards. Then I went to uni in NZ, and there, an A- was 75%! I think an A+ was 85%. The Croatian system is brutal and we had everything from physics to chemistry, art, religious studies, Croatian, English, and Germn at 12 years old plus our school hours are way shorter. The worst was having to read the Russian classics as a 14-year-old and write about them. It’s a terrible system for the kids that have any attention disorders.

@Sdgrth that's interesting about Croatia too & the sciences , beautiful country BTW!

Comparing % needed for a specific grade is an inexact science, though.

I can set a test in which everyone of all abilities gets 100%, and one where nobody gets over 90%, by adjusting the questions and nark scheme.

Equally, in more subjective essay subjects, if the marker is told ‘85% is an A’, they will evaluate an essay as ‘an A’ and then assign the % accordingly . If they were told 75% is an A, then the same essay, still an A, will get a lower %.

I did a four year degree course at a UK university (in the 1990s). I did the third year abroad at a North American University.

On my transcript they provided a handy conversion table. A first in Leeds was 70-100; a II(i) was 60-69. These were mapped to US B+ (60-63), A- (64-67) and A (68-100).
The main difference in practice was the UK marks were essentially capped at 70, whereas the Americans and Canadians used the whole range of marks.

Would be interested to know this too. Germany fared very badly this year on the PISA scores.