Teacher shot by 6 year old $40M lawsuit

[AmandaHoldensLips]

The teacher in the US who was shot by the 6 year old who brought a gun into school is suing her school authority. The child was known to be violent.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65171455

This got me thinking about what happens when violent children are put into school settings, how is it possible to manage their behaviour and protect other pupils or the staff?

I have absolutely no idea what the answer is but I do remember one particular pupil at my kids' primary school who was out of control yet remained at the school.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts and opinions.

'well Timmy can choose not to come to school if he doesn't want to be in a class with Rick'

This is relied on by LA’s imo.

If you have schools A, B and C in an area and when Rick kicks off in school A it makes the parents of Timmy, Dave and Mary move them to spaces in schools B and C it’s considerably cheaper than them having to find a proper suitable placement for Rick. Which ultimately fails all of the children.

Are we talking British or American changes, or both? The kid was American so any changes in the UK aren’t going to impact there but either way it’s absolutely shocking that a six year old is already so violent and responsibility for that has got to start with the family’s culpability. I don’t know what you can do to make schools in the US safer, the country is a mess when it comes to gun culture. I agree that the more lawsuits can hit where it hurts the more likely there could be changes for the better.

I started a thread on this too:

I don’t think it is just ‘funding’ though. Many people don’t want to work with violent, aggressive children and teenagers. It doesn’t matter why they are violent or aggressive, whether it is because of ‘special needs’ or just because they have always been allowed to be aggressive and demanding. Ultimately many people are afraid of being hurt themselves. They would rather earn a living in a less dangerous situation.

it’s easy to blame ‘funding’. We need to be trying to work out why this is such an escalating problem, and attempting to deal with it as a society.

Except I also have a right to a safe working environment.

The real life answer is that nothing happens, the teacher is expected to carry on as if it never happened and the child doesn't get the help they clearly need.

I did supply work teaching a class with a severely autistic Year 4. On several occasions he flipped out, was taken into the hallway and I had to teach pressed against the door to stop him smashing his way back into the classroom. If we couldn't get him out the room, he would hurl chairs at other pupils. In a PE lesson, he lost a game and ran at me, shoved me in the chest and then strangled me with my lanyard. He literally had to be pulled off me while I choked.

Apparently his needs weren't severe enough to get a place at the special school, so the answer was to fail him and everyone around him by leaving him to disrupt mainstream and probably one day severely injure or kill someone.

Funding is a massive part of it though.

One of the closest friends I made working in schools was essentially a specialist SEN assistant. She was paid well (well for that role - that’s a whole other debate), she was given proper training very relevant to the child she worked with and she worked 1-1 with that child full time. That gave her the time to know him really well, to learn his triggers, to learn which of the other children would set him off (deliberate or accidental).

Schools don’t have the funding to do that now. So even situations that could be helped and changed can’t be because you’ve got untrained people who have been allocated 1-2 hours a week working with multiple kids.

It also means that when schools are trying to push for other help instead of being able to say “look, this kid has a well trained 1-to-1 and the situation is still not improving” they’re having to juggle more time to see if that helps, then more time to see if that helps.

The lack of funding is failing everyone. Staff, pupils, parents and society in general.

Oh of course. Well in that case we'll have to keep them in school and the teaching staff will just keep getting bruised and battered on a daily basis? And that's ok is it?

One child versus many present and future children who could end up without a teacher because that particular teacher ended up in hospital with a broken leg then gave up altogether because it isn't worth it anymore? All because of one 5 year old?

Some children, it doesn't matter what you do honestly, they are scarred for life. I've seen some truly horrific things on paper that children have been through. We can be inclusive, but not at the expense of 30 other poor souls sat in the room, and the poor teacher.

Unfortunately, some kids simply have to be excluded.
The problem lies in the lack of funding and restorative settings for these children.

@RecklessBlackberries if that had happened to me in my own classroom, my notice would have been on my boss's desk by the end of the day.
Completely unacceptable.
No wonder there's no teachers left.

I know this is about teachers but it's the same with care due to underfunding and other similar issues. I've never known so many serious assaults on carers as I have now. One support worker was killed by a resident last month in Stirling. Mental health services have been cut so terribly and carers are being asked to look after increasingly violent and aggressive people who even some specialist units struggle with. It's not a sustainable situation.

Easy to say, harder to do when the bills need to be paid. Teaching is a cliquey profession with set notice periods and a dozen other "just how things are done" requirements, local schools won't touch you if they hear you didn't honour them.

Luckily I was supply and didn't have to stick around long. But for his regular class teacher, there's not a lot of options.

I know it's shit for teachers too btw. A good friend is a Primary school teacher and this year she has 4 children in her class all with pretty extensive needs and challenging behavior . There's not a chance in hell that she can do them all justice, or the other kids while trying to keep everyone safe. It's madness to think that it's even possible but there's no real option for her other than to try to get on with it.

My DD was punched by a fellow pupil in front of a member of staff who told my DD to run. she was running to the HOY when the girl cornered her again and punched her in the face again so hard that in the video (yes some little shits recorded it) you can hear her head hitting the wall, she was stood between a teacher and dinner supervisor at the time of the second punch The school couldnt do anything to control that little shit (they were 16).

Ultimately many people are afraid of being hurt themselves

Yes.

And I'm not going to apologise for that (not that you were asking me to!)

I once had to accompany a child and his dad to hospital because another child had punched him in the face and broken his nose. That shouldn't be part of my job.

My lessons are frequently disrupted because of behaviour. And I'm not talking, Little Jimmy threw a pencil and I stopped to tell him off. I'm talking evacuating the classroom because a child is upturning furniture, throwing chairs around, ripping up books. I've worked in schools where doors have been damaged, furniture broken, interactive whiteboards damaged because of children's behaviour.

We use the red hand system but that's no use when there are so many high needs (for whatever reason) children in a school that there is no one to respond when you use it because they're all dealing with someone else somewhere else.

Children calling their teachers cunts and telling them to fuck off, kicking, punching, spitting. I've had all of that.

I've been squared up to and shouted at by a 10 year old accusing me of racism because I asked him to stop talking.

I've worked in schools where supply teachers have walked out at lunchtime and not come back because behaviour was so extreme.

Schools where, when I did supply, I've been told not to worry about getting anything into books. If they're all still in the classroom by the end of the day and safe, the HT will consider that a win.

The situation is dire.

That's awful.

There have also been times when all I could do was a grab a child as they ran past me and yell at another to run or get out of the room.

In those moments, I have to make a decision to protect another child at the risk of my own safety or protect myself and hope the other kid got far enough away.

It's a horrible environment to work in and no one should he in that position.

The teacher in the US case is lucky to be alive. I’m still surprised the parents haven’t faced charges of some description.

it is a really tough balancing act but at some point surely the needs of the teacher and other pupils have to be taken into consideration. My daughter’s has been hit, kicked etc and I’ve absolutely lost my shit with the school about it as I didn’t want her growing up thinking that behaviour was normal. Really there are 3/4 kids that need their own TA as behaviour is unmanageable. Clearly there isn’t the funding for that. One definitely has ADHD, is a genuinely lovely boy but lashes out (they have had to evacuate the classroom before). One is just badly parented (his brother has had an expulsion for bullying). I would be more worried about the behaviour of the latter in secondary school as violence seems ingrained within the family.

The only way to improve this situation and that of most other pubic sectors is higher taxation, and no one votes for that. Perhaps I'll be proved wrong at the next election, I do hope so.

Where is parental responsibility in all of this? It’s absolutely unfair for teachers or other
children to be put in these situations.

Exactly. Everyone banging on about resources, the reports I've seen said that the parents were actively blocking him being put in special ed. They were supposed to be accompanying him at school but that day they weren't. They also claimed that the legally held gun was kept under lock and key. Something really doesn't add up there.

Additionally the teacher herself told school officials that the child had a gun at school with him. How could nothing have been done about it??

Sixfoot, do you mean the parenting that makes children less disabled? or the parenting where it's so easy to get an abuser out of somebodies life? (as violence will be all some kids see at home.)

Are you saying this child was disabled and that’s why he shot a teacher?

violent children should not be in mainstream school. There’s no way it’s fair on anyone

It is funding. When i make 17 records of concern and statements to the police and it still takes a year after that for them to be removed and find a placement, when no mental health support is given in that time to the child to manage their fears,pain and anger you end up with a previously average behaved kid unable to be in a classroom environment because they are unsafe. Which only contributes to their anger,fear,rejection and isolation. But oh, they're on a waiting list now.

When you have kids unable to cope because of their needs but assessments take years, the LA drag their feet or directly reject funding ,use now and next boards and a sensory circuit as a magic wand and if they don't work it's obviously your fault and you can't afford any of the services that previously have shown good results.

When you have kids traumatised because their parent received no support for their mental health and ends up in crisis, with police called, and massive trauma and disruption . Parent ends up sectioned, the kid is displaced and once again no fucking support for them to manage all those feelings and anxieties and fears.

And on top of that Ofsted and the government expect them in every day , to do work and perform well because this or that paper said so. Ffs most days they need a reminder to just breathe.

When you have children with medical needs that need regular appointments,but there's only 2 nurses with a caseload of 240 kids , it takes ages for them to realise that their condition is not managed properly and raise it as a safeguarding concern ,but in the meantime there's other shit going on and the medical condition not only affects their behaviour but their ability to learn as well. Oh , and the school raised concerns but they didn't meet the threshold until the medical safeguarding issues were raised.

And on and in and on it fucking goes.

Keeping children safe in education can be done. But it takes time,money ,interest,passion and hard work. The government isn't willing to put in any of that.

So they pit Jimmy's parents against Lilly's parents and both children's parents against the school/teachers and nothing gets done. No one gets the education they deserve.

Funding might not be whole issue, I wouldn't know . However, I can name numerous children and instances where early intervention and support would've made a massive difference, where kids aren't lost causes and even kids where we managed to make a difference despite the lack of funding and support. I can only imagine how many more we could help if all the services were prioritised and funded properly.

You do realise in the vast majority of cases, especially with SEN, the parents are doing their best.

Often your hands are tied. I was forced to send my DD to the local mainstream school even though I knew the placement would fail, the school knew it would fail, the social worker knew it would fail… but without it failing I couldn’t win the fight to have her moved to where she needed to be.

Most of the time parents are fighting as hard as the school for something better.

I just don’t know why parental responsibility has dropped out of these conversations. I have seen some SHOCKING ‘parenting’ over the years and often thought those poor kids don’t stand a chance, yet it’s all teachers / SS responsibility?

@Violaviolin
Prisons being full of excluded children assumes that all other risk factors for these children/adults is the same. It isn't.

The same reasons children are likely to be excluded are the same reason they end up in prison. Schools can't counteract this without funded support.