Teacher shot by 6 year old $40M lawsuit

[AmandaHoldensLips]

The teacher in the US who was shot by the 6 year old who brought a gun into school is suing her school authority. The child was known to be violent.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-65171455

This got me thinking about what happens when violent children are put into school settings, how is it possible to manage their behaviour and protect other pupils or the staff?

I have absolutely no idea what the answer is but I do remember one particular pupil at my kids' primary school who was out of control yet remained at the school.

I'd be interested to hear thoughts and opinions.

The government has cut school funding, cut places and cut provision so that there aren't enough specialist school places for those children who need them. Conversely there isn't enough support in mainstream schools for the same reasons.

Short version: schools sneed money to properly support all pupils and the government won't pay it.

She isn't unreasonable to sue- especially in the US where her medical bills might be astronomical. Absolutely shocking that she told management that the kid had a gun and nothing was done. Hopefully they will review procedure so it never happens again.

Anyone know if the 6 year old is at the school and the teacher is expected to continue teaching as if it didn't happen?

I agree that she is right to sue. I would do the same.

But I'm more interested in the impossible dilemma of what to do with a violent child whose behaviour has apparently been out of control for years (and he's only 6). And in where parents stand when their own child is impacted by the behaviour of a violent child in their school.

I see there was a thread on Mumsnet Scotsnet recently about violence in schools there.
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/scotsnet/4730161-violent-child-in-primary-class

When I started teaching in the 70s teachers could refuse to teach children who had been violent towards them. I can't understand why the unions have let that slide.

Teachers should be able to refuse to teach violent DCs, it's a safeguarding issue for them.

The short answer is it isn't possible to keep everyone safe. I've had a known violent child punch another in front of me. Nothing I could do to prevent it. In the previous week he'd attacked a different child.

We put our routinely difficult children in an in school setting where they get taught in small groups and are not allowed to mix with other children.

I've had no training in restraint or in dealing with fights etc. These days I refuse to intervene in violent situations and call for help from bigger, stronger and more senior members of staff.

Ideally there would be intervention with these children whose behaviour is crying out for help. There would be support so that their behaviour could be worked on rather than simply managed. Wait lists for CAMHS is 18-20 months and you have to be suicidal to get onto the list.

They've got a right to full time education, which trumps staff or other kids not wanting to be hurt - because getting children into Alternative Provision isn't immediate if it's even possible to get through the hoops for a referral to be accepted in the first place.

The law on exclusions and suspensions is very clear that it's an illegal exclusion if it's due to not being able to meet their needs. It's very clear that suggesting the parent keeps them at home is an illegal suspension/exclusion. It's very clear that a managed move without the consent of the parent and not on pain of 'if you say no, we'll move to expulsion' is illegal. And if the parents make the decision to keep at home, they're also breaking the law. Registering as EHE under duress is illegal offrolling, doing it willingly because they can't see an alternative removes the duty of the LA to enable the child to access full time education.

Basically, they're stuck - without an AP place, the child has to attend and the school have to take them.

Basically, they're stuck - without an AP place, the child has to attend and the school have to take them.

And that needs to change. Safety is more important, it's time it was realised.

I think many schools could find themselves in a difficult situation. Schools are obliged often to keep readmitted these children. They may have a risk assessment but there is little to be done if a child suddenly decides they don't want to do something and lash out.

I'd like to know why the child's parents aren't being prosecuted - they clearly left the loaded gun unattended where the child could get at it. Surely they are to blame? Especially given the child's history?

But safety for the community long term is also important. The stats for permanently excluded kids are dire. The criminal justice system is full of them. It can often be safer long term for these kids to remain in school, their only sense of security and normality. Not saying it's right but it isn't just about the here and now otherwise they would just get excluded. There's nowhere for them to go to and that too often leads to a lifetime of chaos and criminal behaviour. It needs to be properly funded.

This.

I'm a primary teacher.

Safeguarding teachers (and other pupils) from violent attacks by children is an issue even for us. I dread to think what it's like at secondary.

I had no choice but to intervene occasionally and tbh when it's happened, I've been genuinely concerned for my own safety as well as theirs and every other child's - I've been scared. These can be children who have a history of violent attacks against other pupils and threats and abuse towards staff. And, by the time they are in UKS2, many of the boys are bigger than me.

I've had no training in restraint or in dealing with fights etc. These days I refuse to intervene in violent situations and call for help from bigger, stronger and more senior members of staff.

Same here.

I've said I won't do it again. My family needs me alive, uninjured and able to work. And as much as I'm responsible for the safeguarding of the children in school, I'm also responsible for own and my children's.

When people are complaining about teachers having holidays, this is the kind of stuff none of them ever think about. Most people have no idea what a 'normal school day' can actually look like.

A child who is violent to staff and other pupils can be permanently excluded, which can force the LA's hand in finding a more suitable school place. The governors need to support the headteacher's decision and it depends how far the parents are willing to push for the child to return, ie would they go to the next appeal stage.

In theory, yes. And it has happened in the past.

but there aren't any places. There is nowhere for them to go.

I think she’s absolutely right to sue and maybe, just maybe, if it starts costing dollars the Americans might look at changing gun rules… can only hope.
violent behaviour occurs in the UK and staff and fellow pupils are expected to accept it. Makes me ‘laugh’ when I go into post office/doctor surgery etc and see signs saying verbal and physical abuse of staff will not be tolerated and yet it seems to be the new acceptable norm in both primary and secondary settings? Awful for everyone - including the children not receiving the interventions they require.

It's the government that needs to realise that. Parents, school staff , police,SS ,NHS workers have been banging on about it for a ling time but it just gets dismissed as whining and failing.

Cuts to social services, early intervention, mental health services, youth services ,schools and shutting down libraries,children's centres,youth centres, special schools and units all have contributed to the situation in schools now. Many schools are stuck between acting illegally or failing on safeguarding. Fun times.

Have you seen the thread about ASD assessments not going ahead until things have broken down already (relationships,placements etc)? What do policy makers think will happen in classrooms when you have a bunch of undiagnosed ASD kids , with no funding or support? How exactly do they think this "break down " will look like?

There's no interest (public or politicians) to actually fix things,especially long term. Just sound bites and blame pushing.

Absolutely.

But, hey, if we would only make our lessons more interesting and engaging... 🙄🙄🙄

The law needs to change. Its not fair at all on anyone to allow violent kids in schools making everyone else unsafe. It drives good teachers out too. I know they have the right to an education but right now we put that above everyone else's right to an education. If they are violent and disruptive it should be fine to exclude permanently.

Also, yes about the prison stats but surely these kids will still end up in prison, just won't have damaged many other kids on the way, and Maybe some help 1 to 1 would be useful.

This

I (try to) teach a frequently violent child in LKS2.
So far I have prevented a child being hurt by child or a thrown object by getting in the way or taking all other children outside - thus disrupting the lesson for everyone else.
On average this happens 3 times a week.
I didn't manage to teach a whole English lesson at all last week.
It's not fair on the other children or me!

Fwiw I go above and beyond every day for this child - I dread to think how they would behave if I didn't already make so many changes to my classroom, lessons and routines for them.

I know it's not their fault, but it's not mine either

Schools have no power to do anything. This is slightly different because it is SEND but we have a child with severe ASD in our school. He is lovely and absolutely not violent on purpose but even at age 8 he is extremely big and strong (size of a biggish 11 year old and he frequently hurts children and adults unintentionally. He is too strong to be restrained (we try) and because of his autism if he is set on doing something it is physically impossible to stop him. He runs around the classroom and treads on/knocks over other children. He has pushed me and his 1:1to the floor to get to something. He climbs over and jumps from fences into the EYFS areas. He jumps off play equipment and pushes others to the extent that we have had to stop other children accessing it all. His parents have always wanted him in mainstream. They are now considering special school but there are no places available.

Really? You're happy to write off 5/6 yos as "they'll end up in prison anyways"?

Change the law and kick them out before demanding and attempting adequate (at least) funding so that appropriate help and support is given to children affected by trauma ,abuse and/or disability?

Not to mention that the lack of funding means there's nowhere for these kids to actually go to.

This is the biggest issue - there’s nowhere to go.

When I was at school there was a special class in the SEN school that was basically 10 kids who’d been expelled from other schools for violence. They had 2 teachers and 3/4 teachers helps. (Although bizarrely 15yo me was in that class on my week of work experience 😕)

One of the boys from my primary class had been sent there when we were 9/10. My teacher had 22 pupils, no TA/classroom assistant/SEN assistant and wasn’t expected to tolerate it behind a certain point.

Now some teachers have 30 children, lessening (if any) TA help, more children who’d previously been in specialised settings and such limited choices in what happened with kids who were violent.

In some ways it’s a good thing that sending “bad” or “naughty” kids to spend endless days sat in the corridor, as was common then, have stopped as they do need an education. However the resources needed to deal with what’s causing the disruption - be it SEN or naughtiness or disinterest - just simply aren’t there.

ALL. OF. THIS!!!!

It all boils down to lack of money. Services across the board have been cut so much that they are pointless and it is the children who suffer and in turn the adults around them.

This, I can't believe that the governments stance They've got a right to full time education, which trumps staff or other kids not wanting to be hurt is something that they have no shame in saying.
'Sorry Timmy I know Rick broke your nose last week and youre frightened about him coming back to class but thems the rules'.
The injured children have a right to education too, but that's often ignored with the 'well Timmy can choose not to come to school if he doesn't want to be in a class with Rick'

The resources and staff training just isn't there.

Ds has displayed violent behaviour in school due to his needs not being met. He does not display these behaviours anywhere else. Ultimately it's my responsibility to ensure he and others are safe and as a result we removed him from school and now home educate. Ultimately he has complex needs which require specialist training to deal with. His 1:1 TA was 18 years old and didn't know how to use his communication aid, she should have never been put in that position. We had a detailed ehcp but it didn't help us. As a parent the last thing I want is my child hurting someone else but for the love of god some schools don't help themselves.