Football determines the social hierarchy at primary?

[HappyHolidaysEveryone]

Just wondered about others' experiences really. Do you think it's a lot harder for, esp boys, to make friends at primary school (perhaps more thinking late primary, years 3-6) if they're not into football? I know there's a whole 'finding your tribe' thing which will hopefully eventually come...but in my mind this is possibly easier at secondary?
I'd be particularly interested in hearing views of any primary school staff, who may have seen first hand the extent to which (or not..?) a kid's participation in football affects popularity & friendships?
For context, my DS is Yr4 & struggles to find like minded people. There are many potential issues including possible SEN that are being explored but this is just something else I'm wondering about as a side issue.
Is not being one of the 'football boys' a huge barrier to friendships in the average primary classroom do we think?

Neither DS was interested in football and they were both popular and had friends with all sorts of interests.

They were basically geeks and at the top of the academic hierarchy, I suppose. Football not much respected at their schools.

@lieselotte your suggestions are wonderful, thank you. I think this is exactly what we're going to be trying to do- getting involved in lots of other activities, seeing what sticks and then hopefully what opportunities, friendship or otherwise, it might lead to. Your ideas are v helpful and have got me thinking.

It was definitely a problem for my 3 DSes who weren’t into football. It really limited their friendships as they were only ‘allowed’ to be friends with the other non-footballer boys. Luckily there were at least 2 like minded boys in each year.

It followed my DS1 to secondary. He made more friends in sixth form and university luckily, but as he lives in Manchester, he still finds it’s often the first bit of small talk he has to negotiate.

DS2 has ASD and friendships petered out in secondary anyway, but he isn’t too bothered.

DS3 was lucky with primary school, the footballer boys were only about half the group so he had a wider circle of friends. Secondary had even more like minded boys to mix with. He was locked down in halls at university and his flat had 3 other football fan/party animal type boys so he struggled socially there, sadly.

My son was definitely happier at secondary than primary. He actually quite likes football , ie follows the same team as his dad and used to have a kick around on a beach or campsite if there was no one from his school there! He just very much defines himself as not a football lad. Into warhammer, being in a band, politics, geeky stuff. Football seems to have a social significance way above another sport or hobby. He was really good at fell running as a young teen but that certainly didn't increase his social status at school. I think that's OK, not trying to be one of the cool kids is often an easier ride in the long run.

I think it depends entirely on the Primary school.

My DS has dyspraxia so can't throw or catch a ball very easily or ride a bike and tended to stand on the sidelines during games or playtime. It's a small village school with 6 boys and 10 girls in his class and DS is the only one who doesn't play in the local football club. (Irish GAA)

However, one of his teachers realised he wasn't joining in so made a rule that Tuesdays and Thursdays were no ball game days and the children had to play other games in the playground that didn't involve balls. So mostly a variety of chasing Tag type games, skipping etc. The children all loved it as she taught them lots of new games to play and DS was able to join in.

Thankfully, the boys were a supportive bunch anyway and despite DS not being sporty, they were all really friendly with each other and a tight little group throughout Primary.

Yes I see what you’re saying, excuse my defensiveness 😂Football is the popular sport at my son’s school but not the be all and end all. Basketballs are available and there are days each week he comes home and when I asked what he did at break and lunch, it wasn’t football because each class has to get a turn (the field won’t accommodate multiple games). After school activities linked to the school for badminton, netball, basketball but no football. I suppose it would be the same for any sport or activity that was popular - it just isn’t for all children. It isn’t surprising though that bonds and friendships are made through common interests. I think by the end of primary kids are ready for new experiences and people regardless of football, gymnastics, chess etc.

My DS isn't into football, didn't hinder him at all. Not all boys like football, shock horror! He made friends with like minded children. He's not in the "popular" group but he doesn't care one jot about that and neither do I.

Massive social currency where we are. There are the football boys and the rest. By year three or four, there is a split between those who like a kick about and those who are looking at academy signings and take it very seriously. Schools don’t necessarily help. Mine were told to let everyone play. If one of mine took a shot against me and I tried to save it, I’d end up with a broken arm. Good luck to a tiny year three girl! But play together they must. Leads to so much frustration on all sides, plus avoidable injuries.

Even worse is that the school sports teams for everything are often the football team.

My eldest 2 aren’t into football at all eldest has plenty friends some who like and play and some who don’t and my second son has no interest at all also a popular lad.

My 3rd son is 12 and has onyl really been into football for a few years but had plenty friends prior his best friend is football daft am not sure why he decided to be obsessed 2/3 years ago. My youngest likes it, watches it but that’s fairly recent too. He also has friends prior to being into football. Personally I can’t stand football and I’d rather none of them liked it.

Football very much dominates at my sons primary school, while he’ll sometimes opt to watch a game with his Papa, he has no interest in playing it and the majority of his school friends are girls. Now he is in year 3 it has started having an impact, the friendship groups are now very much split by gender, and none of the small group of boys are not into football, so he is feeling quite lonely during playtime at the moment. Even on none football playtime days the football boys just don’t socialise with anyone else.

@Overthebloodymoon I assume your DS is in the academy signing crowd?
Some of the issues are around dominance of play space as you say

You see it with men too. Dh has absolutely no interest in football, but he has to have at least a passing knowledge to engage in conversation with blokes round here. I get lots of blank looks from kids, when they ask me what team I support and I say I don't. Many people genuinely see football as important, whereas if I ask people what books they like, I'm the freak.

I understand this - it was the same for my ds, he played with a couple of quite girls, and due to the naylture of the sport cliques any boys staff tried to get him to play with tolerated him at best, or ignored or started on him.

I'm aware my posts sound a little bitter but it was such a pain to deal with - school couldn't tackle it so avoided it and ds spent a long time entertaining himself as the school librarian (he did a magnificent job!) and anything wasn't seen as a problem by parents as all their children were friends so it was just friends playing, and any non sports children involved were of no interest to them so there was nothing taking place that was perceived as requiring or receiving consequence out of school.

As for taking over the playground - yes!

Class football time was pointless as the sporty kids hated having non sporty kids interfering in what they saw as the sporty kids time rather than appreciating ut was class time - anyone that wasn't in the clique wasn't tolerated and either being left out of games, isolated in matches, having a well aimed and powerful shot 'accidentally' hit you, or just a straightforward few punches, was standard behaviour. And it never changed because as per above paragraph.

My ds has never had any interest in football and so spent his primary school lunchtimes reading while all the other boys kicked a ball about. He didn't really make any friends and I know he found it hard.

Thankfully senior school is much wider in interests, and he swims, practices martial arts and has made lots of friends. It's a relief

@3WildOnes definitely riding at my DCs school. Almost all of them ride and either did or still do pony club. I think it definitely impacts friendships if a group of them regularly see each other out of school and have a shared interest. The few non-horsey girls aren’t excluded though, it’s really shitty from the parents to be leaving children out of parties if they’re young; KS1 but KS2 it just does tend to be smaller, friendship group parties IME.

I wonder if the boys perspectives of who the popular girls are differs from the girls. I know a both of my sons schools they referred to the sporty girls who played football with them as the 'popular girls'.
My daughter rides & dances and isn't that interested in team sports, though she is still very young, and I was wondering if she would find the playground harder than my sons who seemed to find friendships easy as they were sporty.

I wouldn’t worry. I think both those are really popular options for girls and the difference with football and riding is that the riding obviously doesn’t happen at school so doesn’t seem to dictate as much. As I said, the girls who see each other out of school a lot are closer than the others but it certainly doesn’t stop them being friends with the girls they don’t see.
DD often comes home and shows me the dance routines they’ve made up at playtime so your DD may find similar happens at her school and may enjoy that.

She didn’t say this at all ??

Defo no riding & pony club at our school lol. Girls play footy but not at school plus lots gymnastics and dancing & Netball later in juniors

@SolitudeNotLoneliness your experience really resonates with what we're experiencing at the moment.
It's a difficult one to tackle (excuse the pun) ...to the football kids and their parents there is nothing wrong as it's just friends playing (and they're right, it's a great sport & all children can play whatever and with whom they like) ...but there is a fine line between harmless 'just playing with who you want to' & the social exclusion of others who aren't into what's deemed a 'cool' sport- hard for teachers to help with this as no one is doing anything wrong and you can't force kids to be friends. But from what I am seeing, the ages of 7-11 can be tough on boys who don't have that social currency in schools where football dominates and I suppose it would do no harm for schools, and parents of the popular football crowd to recognise this & be on the lookout for any social exclusion, however non intentional it may be. Sorry if that sounds dramatic!

A lot of schools in our area really restrict playground footy to reduce the issues associated with it. The impact on girls is well documented as they tend to play less if football dominates the space

For the boys, definitely. Small rural primary 20-26 children per year group. DS spent the first three years playing with the girls then basically alone. We put him in a course but he still was never allowed to join in at break times - I think mainly he found it too confusing (processing difficulties) remembering who is on his team. He's actually not bad at playing.
Yr 5&6 monopolise the football area and it often descends into fights, then they get banned for a week and the younger kids and girls play (not necessarily football) before getting ousted again.
DD and friends no longer try to play as it's too aggressive. They tend to do secret agent or detective games or dance and circus routines. Only two girls in her class tend to play football and definitely has no effect on the girls' social hierarchy, either between the girls or in the class as a whole. (Although DD is very sporty so can hold her own in PE lessons, that might make a difference?)

@Marchsnowstorms - not academy signed but decent enough to play with the ones that are. As @SolitudeNotLoneliness says, schools don’t necessarily help as forcing years 3-6 to play football together at lunchtime is always going to end in tears and lead to resentment from the ones who are the better players. It does ruin the games!
I’m not sure what the answer is. Don’t have football some playtimes? But I do like that whenever we go anywhere, on holiday, camping, whatever, the DC have a match set up within about 5 minutes. It’s a great social game if it works.

I've just asked my yr 6 DS about this. He says the football boys aren't very nice, they only play with eachother and nobody else really wants to play with them. He's happy to play football with the others who just want a kick around and not to slide tackle their classmates.