Neighbours smashed through loft, no party wall agreement

[ophelia67]

Our neighbours have just built a loft extension. The builders have smashed through into our loft, the steel from their side is exposed on our side. They came round to "fix" it but have left a lot of damage our side.

The neighbours didn't consult us first or ask us to sign a party wall agreement. Are there going to be ramifications for them/us if either of us need to sell being that there isn't an agreement?

Agree ArtVandalay

Anything that invades below ground (with the exception of fracking) on the ground or above is trespass.

It's civil law, slow, tedious, expensive to sort out if you are up against crazies who don't get that they are responsible for their actions. It could take years to sort out.
What are your plans for staying/moving? You will have to declare if you move within six years which will put off most buyers.

Not all areas require planning permission for a loft conversion if it’s within permitted development. You need to contact building control for advice. There should have been a party wall agreement in place and you should have been advised of the planned work before it commenced. I think you also need legal advice to get the fees for surveyors and remedial work sorted with your neighbours.

This happened to a friend of mine. She phoned the council and they put an immediate halt on the work and the other homeowner had to jump through a lot of red tape to get it all sorted.

Incredible. This is an utter disgrace. Not that it matters OP but how old is your home? These people need to make good the damage PDQ.

I hope you get this sorted.

Surely a piece of there steel should not be poking through into your property?

DH and FIL are speaking to solicitor now.

What did the solicitor say, @ophelia67 ?

You have no right to decline a loft conversion taking place and the builders would have been permitted to have access to your loft to carry out the work if needed, however a party wall agreement should have been in place and is designed to protect both you and your neighbours so everyone is clear about what condition your home / walls were in prior to the works starting. It also outlines working hours etc. If your neighbours are behaving well and accept that they should have had one in place I wouldn’t kick up a huge fuss and damage relations but I would be asking that everything is put right on your side and this should be done by their builders at their cost. You may also want to request that a party wall agreement is now put in place too. We did an extension and had a party wall agreement in place and when one of the steel beams went in it caused some damage to our neighbour’s property. Our builders immediately accepted responsibility and put right the damage including sending a decorator round, we were extremely grateful that our neighbours handled it so well. The riskiest part is the placement of beams though as these have to rest on the existing brickwork. I hope you can get everything sorted.

Party wall agreements cannot generally cover works which have already taken place so they won't cover this damage as far as I am concerned. In a loft convesion, installing beams is the main notifiable work. A lot of the rest is permitted DIY stuff which is not within the scope.

It’s also worth asking who their building inspector is and touching base with them, if you have any concerns about the placement of the steel beam, you can then check that it’s been installed correctly. If not this will be flagged and will have to be rectified. All of this should be able to be done without any drama. If you already have a good relationship with your neighbours this should all be able to be sorted fairly easily. I’d avoid going in all guns blazing. You need to check that the beams have been installed correctly (building inspector will need to come out to check this anyway), arrange for any damage to be put right and ideally get a party wall agreement in place, this can be done relatively quickly, in the meantime I’d suggested taking photos of the current condition of the walls and having both parties sign and date these.

🫣

Best advice

@eyeslikebutterflies When you say that "it worked out fine" did you actually manage to recover survey costs or just have the damage repaired?

It's a shame you let the builders in to do shoddy repair work. Might cause a problem but I hope not. I also hope your house is insured.

Not having a PWA will have no impact on you selling your property.
Your neighbours beam coming into your side will.

Their structural elements must not take support from your side of the party wall , ie rest right through.
It’s a fire hazard

I had to get a signed agreement for steels for the loft conversion. Legally they need your permission. They should not protrude into your side though and should be set on a larger brick within the wall.

Your neighbours might not have been aware of how intrusive the builders would be - they do really take over. I had a horrible experience with builders. The neighbours will be responsible legally though.

Yes, there should have been a party wall agreement, but without such an agreement, you are no worse off than before that legislation came into being.
To avoid costs to yourself at this stage, You should write to the Chief at the Building Control department and follow up with a personal appointment and accompanied by someone who can take notes of the conversation.
The Building Inspector should be concerned because fire integrity may be compromised if the hole the beam passes through is not properly sealed.
In addition, you need to check that a building Regulation application was made. This may be deposited plans or a Building Notice. Either way, Building control must verify that all the works do comply with regs.
If the works are not approved and inspected, Building control may sanction the builder in future if the work is not as required by regs, or take legal action against the owner of the building next door. They will be legally expected to achieve compliance at their expense. Often the builder just shrugs and walks away.
It is at this stage the Building Control can ensure someone, not you, can shorten the steel beam and tidy up that part.
Regarding the unspecified mess. Write to your neighbour (Registered post) with your own photos as evidence of the mess and request it be cleared up within 14 days.
Assuming they ignore you, You will need to take legal action.
This may become a civil matter between you and the neighbour, so get a Building Surveyor to take photos on your behalf and expense because your own photos will not be well received in court. There must be no possibility of tampering with them.
The dispute/argument will need to be recorded and declared in any sale documentation, although many people won't do this and it has led to massive claims for damages, after the sale.
Once Building Control have issued the certificate of completion to your neighbour, the property, yours and theirs should not be blighted when it comes to a sale, in that respect. You are not entitled to a copy of the completion certificate but the solicitor doing a search will find it.
I hope this helps and that with tact and diplomacy, you can avoid costs. It isn't your fault, but unless you go to court and win, you will not be compensated.

There is no Building control dept at the council these days. Council has farmed this out to independent businesses. ( although a PP mentioned some councils haven’t. )
OP has no rites to see Bregs applic or drgs. They are not public record. So OP would need written permission to see them.
Neighbour can’t sell without Bregs and often this sort of issue doesn’t come up till they need to.
Building control have no legal responsibility to ensure compliance, that’s the owners remit. In that I mean they themselves can’t be taken to court if they’ve allowed something they shouldn’t or not done their job correctly. They are required to ensure compliance tho
Independent Building control practices have no right to check another’s compliance, without permission from the owner.
The local authority can take builder to court or issue an enforcement notice to get the job done correctly. But this is their absolute last resort as it costs.

The beam should not be within your property, ie over the party wall line. The builder must build a pier on your neighbours side with possibly support from below. If the PW is not thick enough.

It will be difficult to prove the situation before works took place as there’s no PW agreement but common sense prevails and your neighbour will not be seen in a good light, in court, for not getting a PWA.

If you were a practicing building professional, you would know much of what you said is erroneous.
Building control legal powers.

What the link says.
Failure to comply with the building regulations
If you do not follow the building control procedures set out for handling your building work or you carry out building work which does not comply with the requirements contained in the building regulations, you will have contravened the regulations.
Prosecution and enforcement notices
A local authority has a general duty to enforce the building regulations in its area and will seek to do so by informal means wherever possible. If informal enforcement does not achieve compliance with the regulations the local authority has two formal enforcement powers which it may use in appropriate cases.
First, if a person carrying out building work contravenes the Building Regulations, the local authority may prosecute them in the Magistrates' Court where an unlimited fine may be imposed (sections 35 and 35A of the Building Act 1984). Prosecution is possible up to two years after the completion of the offending work. This action will usually be taken against the person carrying out the work (builder, installer or main contractor).
Alternatively, or in addition, the local authority may serve an enforcement notice on the building owner requiring alteration or removal of work which contravenes the regulations (section 36 of the 1984 Act). If the owner does not comply with the notice the local authority has the power to undertake the work itself and recover the costs of doing so from the owner.
A section 36 enforcement notice cannot be served on you after the expiration of 12 months from the date of completion of the building work. A local authority also cannot take enforcement action under section 36 if the work which you have carried out is in accordance with your full plans application which the authority approved or failed to reject.
An appeal against a section 36 notice may be made to a Magistrates’ Court under section 102 of the Building Act.
Where an approved inspector is providing the building control service, the responsibility for checking that the building regulations are complied with during the course of your building work will lie with that inspector. They will usually do this by advising you.
However, approved inspectors do not have formal enforcement powers. In a situation where the inspector considers your building work does not comply with the building regulations and there is a refusal to bring it into compliance the inspector will cancel the initial notice. If no other approved inspector takes on the work, the building control function will automatically be taken on by your local authority. From this point on, your local authority will also have enforcement powers set out above where it considers this necessary.
Impact on Selling the Property
Notwithstanding the possibility of enforcement action, you should bear in mind that if the local authority or approved inspector considers that building work carried out does not comply with the building regulations and it is not rectified, no completion/final certificate will be issued and this is likely to come to light through a local land search enquiry when you wish to sell your property.

I hope that is clear.

Quite right

@MaxFortune Could I ask you :
what would happen in a situation where BC gave retrospective approval via Building Notice but neighbour's build extended beyond what they submitted in plans and more than a year passed?

In our case, BC say that they don't know anything about the additionally built section, they don't deal with boundaries anyway, they cannot justify the cost of taking action now - excuses, really. The BCI was pally with neighbour's partner (I saw something on FB) so turned a blind eye to complaints. Am I out of time to raise it?

not mad fortune but I’m an architect so …
every council is different but you’ve got 10-15years.

if neighbours haven’t built to the drawings or agreements then it’s invalid

Thanks for replying. Our council is crap, won't accept any responsibility or revisit their decision.
I have spoken to the Head of Planning Enforcement and the BCIs I contacted at the time (there does not seem to be anyone in charge, and it shows!)
They never did it with planning either but were given it retrospectively. Again, Inspectorate say that they know nothing about additional part going over the boundary.
I have it in writing from both BC and Planning Inspectorate.
If it officially doesn't exist, why would I get into trouble for removing it?