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Original poster

Neighbours smashed through loft, no party wall agreement

184 replies

ophelia67 · 27/01/2023 11:34

Our neighbours have just built a loft extension. The builders have smashed through into our loft, the steel from their side is exposed on our side. They came round to "fix" it but have left a lot of damage our side.

The neighbours didn't consult us first or ask us to sign a party wall agreement. Are there going to be ramifications for them/us if either of us need to sell being that there isn't an agreement?

OP posts:
karamazing · 27/01/2023 17:06

BruceAndNosh · 27/01/2023 16:59

This is going to cost the neighbour and / or the builder A LOT of money!

Most find ways not to pay if determined. The system is badly broken and getting to that stage can be too costly.

Mammajay · 27/01/2023 17:07

There should have been a formal party wall agreement where a building surveyor looks at your side before work starts or you can agree with a neighbor to take photos etc before the work and they agree to pay for any damage. Neither was done. You should contact the legal dept of your house buildings insurance and ask for advice

WB205020 · 27/01/2023 17:08

@ophelia67 i would request all work stop until the building inspector has been round and I’d demand the lintel is removed from your side. It will be a pain for your neighbours but if you ever want to do a conversion yourself it would hav to be rectified then and that will be hassle.

Schnooze · 27/01/2023 17:14

Yes, get all work to stop until this has been looked at legally.

Poppingboba · 27/01/2023 17:16

You do know that you cannot literally get cowboys to stop works. If they want to carry on, they will carry on. It does not matter what they sign, what the law says they must do. You cannot stop them unless you lock them in a cage.

BruceAndNosh · 27/01/2023 17:20

Poppingboba · 27/01/2023 17:16

You do know that you cannot literally get cowboys to stop works. If they want to carry on, they will carry on. It does not matter what they sign, what the law says they must do. You cannot stop them unless you lock them in a cage.

It depends on the neighbour. If they realise they've cocked up, they hopefully will stop the work.

TheFormidableMrsC · 27/01/2023 17:31

I've had a loft conversion and building control made very regular visits at every stage of the process. There is something very underhand about this.

RidingMyBike · 27/01/2023 17:37

Not all councils have contracted out building control? Ours it's still run by the council who employ people direct to come and do the checks.

AnneElliott · 27/01/2023 17:39

The council do still do building regs @Everyonehasavoice. Yes there is a private option but the council still do building regs if people make their application to them.

Plus if the works haven't had an initial notice submitted by the private inspector then the council has jurisdiction and is called a 'discovery. H is a building inspector (private company) with colleagues who still work for local authority building control so I do know what I'm talking about!

AnneElliott · 27/01/2023 17:41

Councils haven't 'contracted out' their building control. They all still do it - it's just that there is a private sector option for people. That costs more and generally you get a more personal service but the council retain statutory responsibility.

Although my H works for a private building control company, if he or the client doesn't follow the rules then the council can take over the job. The council are also still the enforcing body so if the client doesn't comply with the building regs conditions then H again hands over the job to them for them to take enforcement action (this obviously doesn't happen often).

DillDanding · 27/01/2023 17:42

You can choose if you use local authority building control or an ‘approved inspector’ (private company). But only the local authority has enforcement powers.

wonkylegs · 27/01/2023 17:42

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

@Everyonehasavoice is completely correct
Planning permission literally just covers planning legislation - in fact it covers very little and isn't always required
They don't check party walls, boundaries, rights to light (although daylighting / sunlight is often checked it has a different threshold in planning to RTL legislation), ownership - these are all civil legislation that it's up to the parties involved to sort out.
Building regulations approval is nearly always needed but again doesn't overlap with the other stuff.
It can get quite complicated for a lay person which is why there is a lot more to an architects job than just drawing up some plans.

Sublimeursula · 27/01/2023 17:43

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Noras · 27/01/2023 17:46

Found this.

It may be encouraging to hear that the courts are taking a dim view of Building Owners who proceed with work without serving notice and go on to cause damage to a neighbour’s property. In one noteworthy case, known as Roadrunner Properties Limited v John Dean, the judge made it clear that the Building Owner should not gain advantage by his failure to comply with the statutory requirements. In light of this, he decided that the burden should be on the Building Owner to disprove a link between the damage and the work instead of the reverse which would be the normal position at common law.
Peter Barry Surveyors are recognised experts in the complex area of party wall matters and we routinely advise on all issues arising from the Party Wall Act. If you wish to discuss any building works that may be affected by the Act, either as the Building Owner or an Adjoining Owner, please don’t hesitate to contact us for specialist advice and assistance.

Poppingboba · 27/01/2023 17:47

Building control can issue ATE paperwork for completed works in our (corrupt) council - you pay them a bit more. Planning permission can also be claimed something like seven years ATE if the works are not reported.
The main works in PWA are installing beams. Once that is complete (however badly), then it is too late to get a conventional agreement as that is the main notifiable work.

Noras · 27/01/2023 17:47

Noras · 27/01/2023 17:46

Found this.

It may be encouraging to hear that the courts are taking a dim view of Building Owners who proceed with work without serving notice and go on to cause damage to a neighbour’s property. In one noteworthy case, known as Roadrunner Properties Limited v John Dean, the judge made it clear that the Building Owner should not gain advantage by his failure to comply with the statutory requirements. In light of this, he decided that the burden should be on the Building Owner to disprove a link between the damage and the work instead of the reverse which would be the normal position at common law.
Peter Barry Surveyors are recognised experts in the complex area of party wall matters and we routinely advise on all issues arising from the Party Wall Act. If you wish to discuss any building works that may be affected by the Act, either as the Building Owner or an Adjoining Owner, please don’t hesitate to contact us for specialist advice and assistance.

It might be worth getting your own surveyor in the local area.

wonkylegs · 27/01/2023 17:49

@Sublimeursula lots of architects practices in the city I used to work in had Friday afternoon off or made it a opportunity for a more relaxed afternoon and early finish, I don't know why but it was a thing.
I often Mumsnet whilst making coffee in my studio, I also own my own practice these days. Practice is busy but that doesn't mean I don't get 5mins here and there to do other things.
Flexibility is why I own my own practice and I suspect that's why others on here do to.

karamazing · 27/01/2023 17:51

The surveyors mentioned above are not exactly reputable. Do your research.

CountryMouse22 · 27/01/2023 17:53

They sound like cowboy builders. Legal advice is required.

limitedperiodonly · 27/01/2023 17:59

Insurance and take it from there as many people have said.

I just want to say a bottle of wine or some lovely chocs is not the smooth-over gift many people on mumsnet think it is.

"I am so sorry. I will get this fixed as soon as possible at my expense and tell you every step of the way" is what I wanted to hear from my neighbour when he employed people to pressure wash the front of his Victorian house meaning I had to wade through 180 years-worth of ankle-deep sludge to get to my gate because they sprayed it into the garden and all over the windows of my own house in the terrace.

Instead he said: "Ooh! That does look bad Limited. But to be fair, some of it is in my garden too."

I was not happy with this response Neither was I happy with his peace offering of a bouquet. I was further enraged that they weren't even proper fucking flowers but an arty-farty display of ornamental cabbages. It seems trivial but in my mind it reinforced the impression that he was an aesthete whereas I was concerned with petty bourgeois concepts like my ruined rose bushes.

It got cleaned up in the end at his grudging expense (he was surprised at how much replacement rose bushes cost) but neighbourly relations remain cool seven years later.

Noras · 27/01/2023 21:16

karamazing · 27/01/2023 17:51

The surveyors mentioned above are not exactly reputable. Do your research.

Yes definitely do your own research there are thousands of surveyors out there. I just lifted it for the case law mentioned and did not delete the ending

Disappointed9446 · 28/01/2023 17:56

It sounds like the architect did his measurements/calculations wrong, this lintel would run from wall to wall within their loft, but it sounds like whoever did the plans accounted for the party wall being a skimmed, ergo a void between the two. So when they broke through what they thought was one wall, their side, they in fact broke through the shared party wall.

the above said, it’s definitely a planning office issue.

ArtVandalay · 28/01/2023 18:19

the above said, it’s definitely a planning office issue.

It really isn’t. If you phone your planning department about this, they will politely turn you away. Absolutely nothing to do with planning.

most lofts do not even require planning permission. And if it did, they would only have an interest if it differed from the approved plans. The structural elements do not get included on planning drawings.

Building control may have an interest, but it’s primarily a party wall issue between owners.

Salome61 · 28/01/2023 18:28

I'm very sorry this has happened to you, and hope you reach a satisfactory conclusion. People seem to be in a selfish bubble.

Everyonehasavoice · 28/01/2023 18:32

Disappointed9446 · 28/01/2023 17:56

It sounds like the architect did his measurements/calculations wrong, this lintel would run from wall to wall within their loft, but it sounds like whoever did the plans accounted for the party wall being a skimmed, ergo a void between the two. So when they broke through what they thought was one wall, their side, they in fact broke through the shared party wall.

the above said, it’s definitely a planning office issue.

Architects don’t calculate beams
Thats structural engineers.