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Original poster

Neighbours smashed through loft, no party wall agreement

184 replies

ophelia67 · 27/01/2023 11:34

Our neighbours have just built a loft extension. The builders have smashed through into our loft, the steel from their side is exposed on our side. They came round to "fix" it but have left a lot of damage our side.

The neighbours didn't consult us first or ask us to sign a party wall agreement. Are there going to be ramifications for them/us if either of us need to sell being that there isn't an agreement?

OP posts:
Patchworksack · 27/01/2023 12:51

We had a similar situation, our neighbour knocked down a shared single story extension exposing our roof space to the air. Luckily we have a friend who is a surveyor who came straight round and read then the riot act. They have broken the law by not having a party wall agreement. So, all work stops immediately until the correct paperwork is in place. You are automatically in dispute with them because they failed to get an agreement which means you need a surveyor acting for each side and possibly a structural engineer for each side. If the surveyors can’t agree they a third adjudicator is also required. The offending neighbours pay all fees for both sides, to complete the work to the required standards and damages to you which will be agreed by the surveyors. In our case it took about 6 months to sort out and cost them £6k plus endless hassle. It’s likel they have a cowboy builder and no building regs or they would have been told they needed a party wall agreement in the first place (a mutually agreed one uses one surveyor and costs about £1k with everything agreed before work commences).
Tell them to stop all work immediately, contact a chartered surveyor and building regs at the council.
So sorry - it is a massive headache you do not need!

Ostryga · 27/01/2023 12:55

Call a solicitor now - check your home insurance one might be included. Then call council planning/building.

You need legal advice sharpish.

Gazelda · 27/01/2023 12:56

You must tell your insurance immediately. They have damaged the structure of your property.
And call building regs straight afterwards.

Make both of these calls before the weekend.

In the meantime, the builders should stop work until the damage and bodge repair is professionally inspected.

Emotionalsupportviper · 27/01/2023 12:57

ImmigrantAlice · 27/01/2023 11:37

This is one to get a solicitor involved with immediately, and while you are arranging one don’t agree to any work being done to bodge or hide what happened.

THIS - in spades.

Talk about cheeky effers.

There are so many legal implications for any work involving buildings, boundaries, safety etc. Please don't take any risks.

Patchworksack · 27/01/2023 12:59

Unless it was Chateau Lafitte this is one occasion where a bottle of wine is not going to smooth troubled waters.

viques · 27/01/2023 13:03

If I were the neighbours I would be thinking about what other mishaps the builders have hidden. My shiny new Loft conversion ending up downstairs would be my worry!

Cheesecakeandwineinasuitcase · 27/01/2023 13:04

WheresMyAlex · 27/01/2023 12:22

Absolutely not legal. A loft conversion requires planning permission which would have been publicly displayed and a party wall agreement to be completed prior to works starting, contact council & solicitor.

Our neighbours did a loft conversion last year and did none of this. They didn’t even forewarn us before the works began knowing full well we both work from home. The noise was horrendous. I haven’t looked in our loft since this happened but thunk I’m going to take a look at the weekend

Soothsayer1 · 27/01/2023 13:04

The bottle of wine at least is an acknowledgement that they are in the wrong, of course it isn't sufficient compensation for the damage, I would try to remain civil whilst at the same time making sure you go to the relevant authorities and don't let them get away with anything.
Keep smiling and being polite, iron fist in a velvet glove.

Cheesecakeandwineinasuitcase · 27/01/2023 13:04

*think

viques · 27/01/2023 13:05

Insurance, solicitor , local council . Do not let the builders into your property.

I would also return the wine, cheeky beggars, it’s probably cheap stuff anyway.

FangsForTheMemory · 27/01/2023 13:09

When I sold my last place my solicitor wanted a copy of the party wall agreement for building work that had been done in the house next door. As other have said, get your own solicitor on it straight away.

minipie · 27/01/2023 13:11

You absolutely need some legal help - hopefully via your insurers - to stop this work now. They ought to take out the steel, put the wall back how it was and then start the work again with a party wall agreement in place (and you should appoint your own PW surveyor which they have to pay for).

As pps said the current status could cause you various issues ranging from it stopping you/your buyers from doing a loft conversion, to fire risk, to structural safety.

Not sure planning dept will help you as it may be permitted development. Building control may be concerned if it is structurally unsound/breaches fire regs, but that won’t address all of the issues it causes for you. You need a lawyer.

RecoIIectionsMayVary · 27/01/2023 13:13

Can you post photos (not for any help, I'm just bored and nosey)

FastAndHappy · 27/01/2023 13:15

RecoIIectionsMayVary · 27/01/2023 13:13

Can you post photos (not for any help, I'm just bored and nosey)

Are you the neighbour? 😬

Menopausecankissmyass · 27/01/2023 13:19

When we had our loft converted the first thing on the list was a Part Wall Agreement. Didn't need planning permission but council ensured all building regs were adhered to and came out for inspections, I believe it was when the chimney was knocked down and when the steel girders were put in, and again when the stairs and landing were installed and then again at the end.

Definitely sounds like your neighbours have some cowboys doing the work for them x

LakieLady · 27/01/2023 13:19

My BIL is a builder and on a few occasions where he's been asked to give quotes, said a party wall agreement will be required and customers have told them they definitely don't need one. Their builder/architect/council/auntie's second cousin has assured them that this isn't the case. There's been a few times when he's driven past a place and seen work underway in less time than it takes to get a PWA and thought "more fool them".

There are clearly firms who are prepared to turn a blind eye to the need for PWAs, and they're bound to be cowboys imo.

Anyone pissing about without an agreement deserves all they get imo.

I'm not sure you need to instruct solicitors at this stage, OP, the insurance co will probably instruct their own.

JRsTornadoOfLove · 27/01/2023 13:21

A bottle of wine??? Goodness me, they have the cheek of the devil!

You sound VERY calm @ophelia67 , I would be blowing my top

heldinadream · 27/01/2023 13:31

Bottle of wine my giddy fucking aunt!
Gonna cost them a bit more than that.

workbasedquestion · 27/01/2023 13:34

My husband is an architect, just shown him this. He says it's not legal but you need to go down that route, the neighbours will be made to pay expenses.

megletthesecond · 27/01/2023 13:39

If the builders van is out there I'd get a photo with the reg too.

kathwood7340032 · 27/01/2023 13:44

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

neverendingpartywallproblems · 27/01/2023 13:44

LakieLady · 27/01/2023 13:19

My BIL is a builder and on a few occasions where he's been asked to give quotes, said a party wall agreement will be required and customers have told them they definitely don't need one. Their builder/architect/council/auntie's second cousin has assured them that this isn't the case. There's been a few times when he's driven past a place and seen work underway in less time than it takes to get a PWA and thought "more fool them".

There are clearly firms who are prepared to turn a blind eye to the need for PWAs, and they're bound to be cowboys imo.

Anyone pissing about without an agreement deserves all they get imo.

I'm not sure you need to instruct solicitors at this stage, OP, the insurance co will probably instruct their own.

Your BIL is a good builder. When we were getting quotes for our building work, two separate builders looked incredulous that we were spending money on a party wall (loft conversion plus wrap around so required by law) and suggested it was due to poor relationships with our neighbours.

I am SO glad we did get one - we didn't have a previous poor relationship with our neighbours but they were an absolute nightmare during (and after) building work and we could at least keep reminding them to contact their appointed surveyor rather than having to listen to their ranting (about non-party wall and non-noise/disruption related issues).

OP - is your neighbour doing a loft conversion? Or did they just decide on some internal work on the loft/roof which has led to this? Not saying they shouldn't have a PWA but if this isn't a loft conversion with full plans, structural drawings, building regs, they may just be relying on builder's knowledge on what is required and genuinely not know they needed a PWA. Whatever the situation, get home insurance involved and damage needs to be dealt with and paid for but it could have been an honest mistake rather than ploy to save money

ihaveopinions · 27/01/2023 13:46

The horse has already bolted a bit as you let the cowboy builders in to do some work on your property. Phone calls should have been made as soon as you were aware - council, building regs, solicitor etc - and this work stopped in its tracks. Making good allows for covering up. PWA needed and I expect the builders knew this even if your ignorant NDN didn't. Bottle of wine as compensation, my arse!

billyt · 27/01/2023 13:50

There is a 'developer' who keeps buying three-bedroom terraced houses near us to convert into six-bedroom HMOs. He never has arranged any PWAs with any neighbouring houses.

Just does not stop these fucking cowboys.

wonkylegs · 27/01/2023 13:51

Ok there is lots of misinformation in this thread
Planning permission - you don't necessarily need planning permission for a loft conversion and even if you did it doesn't deal with structural integrity etc just planning principals, layout and appearance
Building regulations - they will need building regulations approval but this incident doesn't mean that they don't have it however, this incident would have me asking that they have the right paperwork and inspections
Party wall act - this incident is what the party wall act is for, by not informing via the right process they are in automatic breach. Unfortunately PW legislation is civil law so enforcement is via you taking them to court.
See info here www.gov.uk/government/publications/preventing-and-resolving-disputes-in-relation-to-party-walls/the-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet#para_42 - question 48 in faq's
You can if you wish try to negotiate resolution with them outside of the courts however you also have the option to take them to court to stop further work (injunction) and get restitution or compensation.
There are no outside agencies (council etc) who will deal with this for you however your house insurance may have legal cover which can help.
I would speak to a surveyor or structural engineer to ensure whatever restitution is needed is done correctly. You should be able to claim the costs for this from your neighbour.
The law is in your side however it takes a bit of work to bring a claim if the neighbour disputes this.
I am an architect and find people often gloss over party wall etc hoping that their neighbours ignorance will work in their favour and that nothing will go wrong. It's stupid because the PW notification would protect them too from nuisance claims from neighbours but people don't think like that and builders often don't know or care about it.