Explaining why women can be scared of men to your older children

[Mossball]

I have two teen boys and a younger primary aged girl. We were watching Hunted and some of the fugitives were hitch hiking close to where we live. I was asked if I would have picked them up. Given the presence of a camera crew I agreed I might - but without the crew I would never have picked up two males with just me and my daughter in the car due to fears for our safety.

At this point I'm accused of being sexist. I point out that men are generally more violent, more likely to be convicted of violent offences etc. That while I might stand a chance against a woman I would not against a man. Interestingly the reverse situation of DH saying he would not pick up two female hitch hikers in case of a false accusation was not an issue for the boys.

I appreciate I don't speak for all women but I know if I'm out alone walking my dog on the common or walking back from the pub at night, or going for a run, I'm wary of men. How do you explain that fear to your own sons?

I tell them that, on the whole, men are physically stronger and I'd be less likely to be able to fight back against them. Also, that while most men are good, some are not and we don't want to risk picking up one of those. We can't tell who they are by just looking. So, for that reason, I wouldn't pick up male hitchhikers. However, I wouldn't pick up any hitchhikers full stop. Can't necessarily trust women either.

To be honest the hitch hiking bit was just what started the discussion. I don't pick up hitch hikers because then I wouldn't be able to sing! What surprised me was how lacking in awareness my boys were and how insulted they felt that I would be worried about my safety around men.

Bring up official crime statistics of violent crimes that show almost all perpetrators are men.

Let them know that around 3 women a week are murdered by their partners or ex partners.

Interesting. My young men are well aware of how their presence might make a woman uncomfortable. I was surprised at how aware they were and that they consciously make sure they aren't inadvertently worrying anyone.

I'm very surprised they don't already get it, with two women in their household, and presumably, female friends at school. Are they completely unaware of what's been in the news lately?

I think you need to educate them about this as a matter of urgency and while you still have some influence over them. There is reams of info out there. Its not hard to find.

God, the formatting on this bloody website.

If your older children are already accusing you of being sexist for pointing out that women alone are far more at risk from men than the other way round, it sounds like you've got your work cut out.
How old is "older children"?

They need to understand their privilege. They need to understand that inequality affects every aspect of women’s behaviour. If they won’t see it how can it change?

I have two adult boys and I have had discussions with both of them in the past about how as a young and now older woman I feel around men I don't know or men I have only just met. It was a surprise to both of them how much I and women in general felt and how we had to adjust our everyday lives to feel safe. They had no idea that most women have some degree of fear of men and teenage boys.

Even as boys...

Would the be more worried about a man following them or woman?

Who do they think they would have a better chance of outlining? Or beating in a fight?

We had a discussion after watching (via gogglebox) an episode of I think Hollyoaks, where a young woman, drunk and walking home at night, was attacked. It was very powerful because all the viewers in Gogglebox were scared for her during the long build up, as were we. It was a really useful way to discuss why that was. And I followed it up by discussing with my DS13 how he is getting to be of a size where, particularly in the dark, women may be nervous of him, and what he can do to mitigate that fear (not walking behind someone for ages, etc).

I'm surprised that your teens can't see this.
Why do they think that there's so many more men in prison than women?
If they were alone in a car would they really help a man who looked bigger and stronger or the man that they could take on in an emergency ? They must know that in a fight a bigger and stronger person could cause more harm to them. I've seen much younger kids fully aware of that.

Do they talk to little kids that they don't know or do they know that they'd be seen as potential pedos unlike a female friend who did the same?

"Every woman you know has taken a longer route.
Has doubled back on herself.
Has pretended to dawdle by a shop window.
Has held her keys in her hand.
Has made a fake phone call.
Has rounded a corner and run.
Every woman you know has walked home scared.
Every woman you know."

I don't have boys, but I teach about 150 teen ones. I'm trying to think of one, just one, who would think it's sexist to be concerned for the safety of a woman alone. I can't. You get the odd NAMALT wisecrack, but facts, figures and the sheer fucking tiresome truth of it all usually helps the hard of understanding.

I'd be a little worried about this.

My dd's friends who are teenage boys all seem to be hyper aware of this, so I'm really surprised that yours don't seem to have ever considered it. Do they have any friends who are girls?

In your shoes, I would be concerned that they might have been exposed to material on the Internet telling them to be offended by this, rather than never having thought about it at all.

I have discussions with my boys about this all the time. They are 12 and just 15.
They do say NAMALT and 'women can be violent too' but I see that as them trying to defend men as a sex class, which I would expect from their age.
Both are also ND which probably contributes to rigid thinking! Anyway, they do understand and I hope I'm raising young men who respect women.

I remember from a very young age my mother telling me not to speak to strangers, not to get into a stranger's car, to kick him 'where it hurts' and so on. Then as I got older, never to walk alone at night or in lonely places. Never hitch hike. The feeling that one always had to be on guard. Also the many times of feeling unnerved if a man seemed to be following me, or even in a crowded bookstore with a couple of men nearbly saying unpleasant sexual things deliberately so I could hear them. Or being groped in a nightclub queue. Being attacked by a man who I had known as a friend, luckily in company with others who dragged him away. Not even going to go into my abusive marriage.

Women don't have the same physical strength. Even the other day, my lovely DP being irritated that the backdoor is always locked during the day. I had to explain that it's a safety concern for me. Men are so lucky they don't have to live with that burden. Your sons need to be made aware of this.

I'd tell them to stop being so utterly ridiculous and give them some home truths including:
Stats
Personal anecdotes
A dose of reality

It's an absolute absurd position that they are taking.

Why would children just out of primary school know statistics about percentage of prison populations? And they might not yet realise about strength and speed disparity. Unless there is physical strength used in the home, I think it is easy for men to underestimate how great the strength disparity is, especially as films and TV programs for that age group (12-14) would rarely show this realistically.

If your sons don't know this stuff and they're teenagers, you haven't been having the right conversations with them. The fact that your husband brought up false accusations and you all nodded along is very worrying.

For me it's not about fear. I'm not frightened of men. It's about risk assessment. What is the risk - being attacked. How can I mitigate that risk while continuing to live my life - not picking up hitch hikers when alone (I might do it if DH was with me), many other things. I up my level of caution according to the level of risk I perceive.

If you have a strong, physically confident daughter age 10-11, who at that stage may be taller than all the boys in her class, when do you start telling her that she will very quickly not be able to run faster/throw further etc than boys any more? Or does society do it for us and she just gradually realises? 😞.

Neither of them ever go anywhere alone so no worries of them accidentally scaring women while out and about. Partly due to ND issues and partly due to where we live. They have never been in a position to be worried about those about them as unless they're at school they're with us. They just haven't had to think about it. I can't imagine prison populations and criminal activity will have been covered at school and while I have likely mentioned it previously that doesn't mean it has stuck in their heads.

I don't believe for one minute that they don't respect women. In fact I think it almost reflects this that they see the sexes as equal. It's hard for them to accept that in some areas they're not.

They need some plain talking out of earshot of their little sister.

'Who exactly do you think is going to be responsible for raping and murdering a woman? They're bigger, faster, stronger at any size and they're the ones who rape and sexually assault at least 85,000 women every year in the UK. That's every year, not in total, so by the time you take your GCSEs (for example, two years), that's 170,000 more women in the UK who have been attacked by men, not women. Men are more at risk of being assaulted or killed by other men as well, but being raped as well is less likely for them on the whole, whereas it's almost guaranteed for a woman. If you think your righteous indignation is going to change that, stop howling at me about how it's not fair and do something about it and change male attitudes towards women and violence on the whole.'

I did have an ex who said similar. When the next comment was 'Well, you haven't been - '. 'Of course I bloody have. I'm x years old and I've been dealing with this shit since I was 10. It's always there, it determines what I do at night, what I do in the day, where I go, what I wear, how I speak to people, the woman who doesn't think about her safety at all in relation to men is either extremely sheltered, extremely lucky or already a tiny paragraph in the local news'.

Don’t be ridiculous “out” IS school for children. School is their office/high street/neighbourhood.

I mean that they aren't accidentally walking behind lone women. I also am referring to the fact that they never walk anywhere alone so don't have to risk assess those about them. I appreciate that might seem odd in teens but their being ND basically keeps them home.