Explaining why women can be scared of men to your older children

[Mossball]

I have two teen boys and a younger primary aged girl. We were watching Hunted and some of the fugitives were hitch hiking close to where we live. I was asked if I would have picked them up. Given the presence of a camera crew I agreed I might - but without the crew I would never have picked up two males with just me and my daughter in the car due to fears for our safety.

At this point I'm accused of being sexist. I point out that men are generally more violent, more likely to be convicted of violent offences etc. That while I might stand a chance against a woman I would not against a man. Interestingly the reverse situation of DH saying he would not pick up two female hitch hikers in case of a false accusation was not an issue for the boys.

I appreciate I don't speak for all women but I know if I'm out alone walking my dog on the common or walking back from the pub at night, or going for a run, I'm wary of men. How do you explain that fear to your own sons?

I think days like International Woman’s Day give a good opportunity to speak about the challenges women face and the threat from some men. My DSs school mark IWD and it has started some useful conversations about the fear of men being predatory and women feeling vulnerable. He’s at an age now where some of these issues come up in tv or movies, and he hears me talking to his older sister about her safety.

It needs to be a natural, regular part of conversation and daily life for our boys to be aware and respectful.

How old are they, OP? Do they go to an qll boys' school? Or are their interactions with others limited because of their neurodiversity? I'm really struggling to get my head round how this could be a new idea to teenage boys. I'd still be concerned that they may have been reading shit on the Internet that is encouraging them to deny the lived experience of most women!

There was a thread recently where people were talking about their teen sons walking their female friends home. I wonder what your sons would think about that?

Didn't that also end up with mothers of boys doing the "but who will look after the menz" thing as well?

I have two boys (10 and 12) and ive spoken to them at different times about how I expect them to stand up for girls if needed and how sometimes even just by being there, boys can seem threatening. My 12 year old is still Pre puberty and is small and I can beat him in an arm wrestle but even he knows and understands that in a few short years he’ll be stronger than most women, and women will know that.
There are bits he finds sexist - but he also gets that women are at risk from some men, and that women have no way of knowing which ones are fine and which ones aren’t.
He’s also come across Andrew Tate and luckily has come to his own conclusions that he’s awful (I hadn’t heard of him previously).

Now I think you are being naive. A boy put his arms around my daughter on the stairs at school last year and “hugged” her. Being ND means they need to understand this more explicitly than their peers because they are unlikely to see social signals in the same way. NOW is when they need to learn it, while they are in a safe supervised environment.

See I have a problem with this mentality. You can be concerned about women and men in the face of male violence. Male on male violence is an issue and it isn't unreasonable to want to protect our sons and daughters. It is safer to not be alone and this should be planned into outings.

I mean, presumably, unless she’s near 6ft, she can see that in the adult population, men are generally taller than women, and that in sports men play men and women women. She must have twigged that there’s a reason for this?
Having said that, I’m 5ft4 but I’m also a physically confident woman - I know I couldn’t beat a man at a physical challenge, but i weight train and keep fit so I can be as healthy but also project an image of physical confidence which might make a potential threat think twice.
However, I’m also middle aged and do all the normal “safety” things as well.

Men as a sex class are staggeringly under informed on the subject of their own privilege. I haven't come across one yet who I have had this discussion with who hasn't admitted that they didn't realise exactly what lengths women and girls go to to keep themselves safe.

Violence against Men is of course a worry, but as it is largely Men who are responsible for that too, I would rather they took responsibility and addressed toxic masculinity in all its forms.

Unfortunately the only people who can dismantle the Patriarchy are Men.

When asked what you do to protect yourself these were the results...

Yep. I agree

But shoehorning into every conversation about what women have to be prepared to do to avoid that violence with whataboutery regarding male on male violence is unhelpful.

Yes, it exists. Of course it's abhorrent. It'd be interesting though to see if there is crossover between men beating men up and men sexually assaulting women. If there is, then we can run with the whataboutery. How many rapists also beat up men on the street? I'd imagine very few.

But again, men are more likely to be vicitm of violence than women. Women worry more about stranger violence, but their greatest risk is people they know.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/thenatureofviolentcrimeinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2018

But on the flip side refusing to engage or flippantly saying 'what about the Menz' when individuals are talking about their sons doesn't help either.
It is possible to talk about male violence as a whole but also about individuals. Male violence is a problem and back to the op I would have felt I failed if my sons had reacted like that.

My DD has known for a while she will have to leave her sports team within the next 18 months, maybe even this summer, as regulations state that it has to go single sex from U12 due to safety for the girls. (She is currently an U10 in an U10/U11 team)

She has already seen the disparity in professional sport.

Unfortunately... they know from quite young that at one stage the boys will get, on average, bigger stronger and faster than them.

Just tell them. Why pussyfoot around it?

I think this is pretty well known - that you are much much more likely to be attacked by a man you know. I think women know that, maybe twenty years ago, it was perceived differently?

also well known that men are more commonly subject to violence by men.

all things people need to tell their teens.

My kids sit and watch the news alongside me. I don't think I'd ever have to sit them down and spell out why women may fear men. Or why men may fear other men for that matter.

This would definitely concern me, but I would also be worried if my DH said that about being falsely accused of something. I think it was in Laura Bate's book (Men who hate women) that I read boys/men are statistically more likely to be raped themselves than to be the victim of a false accusation. The rhetoric around this is grossly hyped by MRAs and has entered the main stream...along with other worrying misogynist content from the likes of Tate.

I think you need to work on this, and not only in relation to your DS's lack of understanding.

Id be explaining that while the majority of men are fine, that nearly all violent and sexual crime is commited by men, either towards women, or other men, so its a completely normal risk assessment for a woman especially, but even men, to be much more wary of men they dont know, than women. That of course its not 100%, but all of us have to make judgements as to the risks we take, and as much as it would be lovely to think that everyone is safe and lovely, they are not.
Tell them that you dont appreciate being told that your actual knowledge and experience of statistics and also history and current news is somehow sexist against poor men, but it still stands.

Do you think they’re accessing any Andrew Tate type nonsense online that might be influencing their thinking? If my teenage son couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t be happy to pick up a male stranger in my car when me and my daughter were travelling somewhere I’d think they were being quite simple minded.

Most people have the imagination to place themselves in other’s shoes and empathise. If they really can’t do that then you need to speak to them more. My nine year old could figure that out!

If my teenage son couldn’t understand why I wouldn’t be happy to pick up a male stranger in my car when me and my daughter were travelling somewhere I’d think they were being quite simple minded.

This. I'd go as far to say that being deliberately obtuse about this blindingly obvious matter in the same manner as mras would be your first clue they have fallen into a misogynistic online pit. I'd get onto that first.

I didn't know that it ended up like that. Shame..

I'm not surprised they don't realise. I don't think most men get it. I was talking to dh and it came up that he has never felt concerned for his safety...anywhere at anytime. I don't think I have really ever been on my own after dark WITHOUT thinking about what could happen. Men just don't get it and, even when it's explained, they never really understand to what extent male violence (even just the fear of it) restricts our lives.

You would think this is obvious but kids get such mixed messages nowadays even in sports, especially in sports! Girls are taught that it is fair for some males to compete with them. Is it any wonder that they think that sex differences are unimportant?

Agree - my DH would often go for an evening walk at 9pm without a second thought. However, he said that when he’s out walking at any time, he’s aware that he’s a moderately tall man and although he’s lovely, women don’t know that so he’ll either cross the road or pretend to talk on his mobile. I was out walking with him once and I was like “why do you cross so far into the road when we walk past people?” And he was like “I don’t want them to think I’m too close - I do listen to you” and I was very pleased to be married to someone who gets it.