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Original poster

Sajid Javid states patients should pay a fee for GPs and A&E visits

232 replies

MushMonster · 21/01/2023 08:40

Just woke up this morning to this

www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jan/20/sajid-javid-calls-for-patients-to-pay-for-gp-and-ae-visits

I so wish we could get early elections.
I had more than enough of this lot!
They will use the strikes to push in policies like this before we can chuck them out, following Thatcher's model to the letter.

OP posts:
shash1982 · 21/01/2023 09:34

I don't see how they could even bring something like that in.
Taxpayers already contribute towards the nhs so we essentially will need to pay twice to access healtcare.
The issues that would worry me are that if low earners, children, people in receipt of benefits etc have access to free childcare it'll be the middle earners who are not entitled to benefits who would struggle to pay for dentists would not be able to afford it.
Unless they do a complete reform on taxes and salaries then I can't see how it would work.

renonovice · 21/01/2023 09:35

if it’s means tested I don’t see an issue with it. The NHS can’t carry on as it is and there isn’t an infinite pot of money available to bail it out.

what does means testing look like though?

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 21/01/2023 09:36

Almostwelsh · 21/01/2023 09:32

We don't have enough GPs. Paying for an appointment isn't going to magic up any more GPs.

And the biggest users by far of the NHS are people past retirement age, most of whom presumably wouldn't pay, as they don't pay prescription charges currently.

It won't make any difference to the level of service.

This is my worry. That it would be nothing more than a sticking plaster, another layer of bureaucracy to pay for without any of the underlying structural factors being addressed.

CatNutsRoastingByAnOpenFire · 21/01/2023 09:37

dexterslockedintheshedagain · 21/01/2023 08:51

Isn't that what NI contributions are for?

I would be fine with paying to see the GP if I got a refund on all the years I have paid this and not used the NHS.

shash1982 · 21/01/2023 09:37

And probably a controversial opinion, but I don't think means testing always work.
I'm a middle earner but am not entitled to benefits apart from child benefit. Once I have paid out rent, food and bills I don't have enough to regularly visit the dentist, let alone pay to see a GP.

ichundich · 21/01/2023 09:37

He's not in government, so it's just his opinion. The Guardian loves a bit of doom and gloom. That's not to say that the state of the NHS isn't worrying of course.

bellac11 · 21/01/2023 09:37

We already pay

The other issue is that there would have to be all sorts of exemptions such as children, the elderly, pregnancy, people on benefits and people on low incomes.

That leaves a fairly small number who would pay and it would feel unfair as the above catergories are probably the bigger users of the health service

It would then breed more resentment about how the NHS is funded, giving political opportunity to do away with it even more.

Cynical.

Vinorosso74 · 21/01/2023 09:38

I think this is such a bad idea (like most Tory policies). It would stop a lot of people seeking help as they can't afford it. The NHS, social care and all public services should be properly funded. Yes, this would mean in increase in taxes but how about they put some effort into stopping the, currently legal, tax avoidance schemes the wealthy manage benefit from, getting large companies to pay their taxes.
Surely, a country with decent public services which supports it's people will have a healthier population.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 21/01/2023 09:38

But everything is means tested. When are they going to raise the bar for how much you need in current cost of living.

Student loan is means tested
all benefits are means tested
suport for energy is means testec
free school meals are means tested
precriptions and glasses are means tested.
Child benefit is means tested

When does the barrier for means testing go up financially?

renonovice · 21/01/2023 09:39

For those who are against it,what’s the alternative? Because if you don’t want to contribute extra through taxes or pay for a consultation then the NHS is going to have to really limit the care it offers, then we really will have a 2 tier system

There is huge intergenerational inequality in the UK, that needs to be acknowledged when discussing funding NHS & social care needs
with an ageing population.

Stunningscreamer · 21/01/2023 09:39

Myotherpetisamouse · 21/01/2023 09:08

NI contributions have never balanced the books on NHS, not even since day 1.
Any fees should really be viewed as a top up not “paying twice”.
People on low incomes shouldn’t have to pay- it should be means tested, but I’d be happy to at least pay something
For those who are against it,what’s the alternative? Because if you don’t want to contribute extra through taxes or pay for a consultation then the NHS is going to have to really limit the care it offers, then we really will have a 2 tier system

Exactly.

Someone has to pay and the answer can't always be, someone who earns more than me.

People who are on benefits or very low incomes wouldn't have to pay but most other people can afford it. I don't think it should be exempted for older people unless they also come into the category of very low pay too. My father for instance had a much higher income from rental and pensions than I was earning at the time doing a full time job.

EarthPunchingBack · 21/01/2023 09:39

It works in many other parts of Europe and they pay higher taxes too. We are so obsessed with paying as little as we can get away with here that we can no longer support our public services. We need to really scrutinise how the Northern European models are run and embrace that before these bastards introduce an American system which would be catastrophic.

The current model is totally defunct and we all need to recognise that.

thetrees · 21/01/2023 09:41

bellac11 · 21/01/2023 09:37

We already pay

The other issue is that there would have to be all sorts of exemptions such as children, the elderly, pregnancy, people on benefits and people on low incomes.

That leaves a fairly small number who would pay and it would feel unfair as the above catergories are probably the bigger users of the health service

It would then breed more resentment about how the NHS is funded, giving political opportunity to do away with it even more.

Cynical.

Bellac put it better than me.

And as with cost of living payments, people not on benefits but financially struggling will be caught by the system and have to pay. This will not go down well.

BashirWithTheGoodBeard · 21/01/2023 09:42

Vinorosso74 · 21/01/2023 09:38

I think this is such a bad idea (like most Tory policies). It would stop a lot of people seeking help as they can't afford it. The NHS, social care and all public services should be properly funded. Yes, this would mean in increase in taxes but how about they put some effort into stopping the, currently legal, tax avoidance schemes the wealthy manage benefit from, getting large companies to pay their taxes.
Surely, a country with decent public services which supports it's people will have a healthier population.

I think it's generally a better idea for these things to be funded communally through taxation rather than penalising those unfortunate enough to be unlucky with their health. But there's a trust issue with the current shower. I've voted for tax raising parties in the past and may well do again, however I'd be reluctant to pay more tax now because I simply don't trust the current government to actually use it to improve the NHS.

renonovice · 21/01/2023 09:43

Want to fix the nhs? Fix social care.

social care is a huge issue but noons really addresses it.

MarshaBradyo · 21/01/2023 09:44

Stunningscreamer · 21/01/2023 09:39

Exactly.

Someone has to pay and the answer can't always be, someone who earns more than me.

People who are on benefits or very low incomes wouldn't have to pay but most other people can afford it. I don't think it should be exempted for older people unless they also come into the category of very low pay too. My father for instance had a much higher income from rental and pensions than I was earning at the time doing a full time job.

Show quote history

I agree with you too re calls to pay. So many would be exempt.

Kazzyhoward · 21/01/2023 09:44

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 21/01/2023 09:38

But everything is means tested. When are they going to raise the bar for how much you need in current cost of living.

Student loan is means tested
all benefits are means tested
suport for energy is means testec
free school meals are means tested
precriptions and glasses are means tested.
Child benefit is means tested

When does the barrier for means testing go up financially?

Very little on your list is means tested. In particular not "ALL" state benefits are means tested!

Student loan for tuition fees isn't means tested
State pension isn't means tested nor is Winter fuel allowance
Statutory Sick pay/maternity pay isn't means tested
Some of the energy support discount isn't means tested
Prescriptions aren't means tested for the young and old
Some eye tests/glasses aren't means tested for the young and old
Child benefit isn't means tested - there's a clumsy claw back for people earning over £50k, but not a couple earning over £50k nor people with hefty savings/investments, but income under £50.

The only item on your list fully means tested is free school meals!

SuperbOwls · 21/01/2023 09:45

I swear ideas like this get floated around every few years but it would surely be electoral suicide to put it into action.

The NHS probably does need some sort of reform but lord knows what. We've come to expect an awful lot more from it that anyone did in the past, perhaps it's time to slim it down a bit? Who knows. I get the feeling there's no ideal solution

renonovice · 21/01/2023 09:45

The appointment system is shit as well. I've had letters that have contradicting texts. I had a reschedule letter & was then sent a letter I missed my appointment. My dad recently had a "do not attend" in person appointment text which was apparently sent by error.

renonovice · 21/01/2023 09:46

We don't have enough GPs. Paying for an appointment isn't going to magic up any more GPs.

yep

And the biggest users by far of the NHS are people past retirement age, most of whom presumably wouldn't pay, as they don't pay prescription charges currently.

yep

It won't make any difference to the level of service.

yep

SuperbOwls · 21/01/2023 09:47

If they do start means testing I only hope they do it on an individual basis, rather than households. There is so much wrong with that system too

echt · 21/01/2023 09:47

ichundich · 21/01/2023 09:37

He's not in government, so it's just his opinion. The Guardian loves a bit of doom and gloom. That's not to say that the state of the NHS isn't worrying of course.

He still said it. Tell me where the Guardian has been wrong about what the Tories want to are doing, why don't you?

It's the Tories lobbing in shit that incoming Labour will have to say how they would deal with it while they've spent 12 years fucking the NHS over.

LumpyandBumps · 21/01/2023 09:47

My income is less than average earnings, I am probably in the ‘managing’ bracket, but if I could voluntarily pay extra tax or NI which would go directly towards the NHS I would willingly do so.
I wouldn’t object to a system of ‘fines’ for blatant misuse, although suspect that offenders might often be in the group exempt from paying charges. I could not support a regime which penalises people for being genuinely ill.
I don’t know how other countries operate their systems, but if someone is diagnosed with a life threatening or life changing condition, which is possibly already going to threaten their income, how can charging them for essential treatment be justified?

renonovice · 21/01/2023 09:48

And probably a controversial opinion, but I don't think means testing always work.

It doesn't when you are just looking at income.

Bestcatmum · 21/01/2023 09:48

I'm currently working 6 days a week so one day overtime (I'm NHS) so I can afford to see a dentist. All my fillings need replacing and I need a dental implant.
My dentist is my old dentist 300 miles away so I have to arrange a day trip to see them, there are no local dentists taking on patients.
Love the way the NHS chief says we are causing the problem. No we are not - its decades of them avoiding the problem and expecting us to get poorer and poorer every year.