Are patients not washed any more in hospital?

[Shortkiwi]

I am a nurse of over 40yrs plus. My 93 yr old father has been in hospital for a week. We have visited every day and had to wash and shave him in the afternoon or evening because it hasn’t been done. When I asked if he could be showered one evening, for the next day, I think they showered him but without using soap or shampoo, basically hosed him down from what he reported. His hair was definitely not washed. His teeth have not been cleaned without us doing them. Shaving is definitely not on the agenda. When I was a young nurse it was a given that patients were bathed each day, either in the bathroom or in bed. Teeth/dentures were cleaned and male patients shaved. We were admonished if these things weren’t done. Dad’s ward was very quiet today with several nurses chatting at the nurses station. They were very happy to get us any personal items we didn’t have. I just think if it wasn’t for us he wouldn’t be clean. He actually said, through his dementia, how much better he felt today after we showered him and washed his hair and said it would last him for a while! Which it won’t of course!
We had a list, in the old days, in terms of total patient care, in which we had to tick off items of personal hygiene for every patient in both our theory and practice. I’m sad for those that might not have relatives to attend to personal hygiene these days. It has never been discussed that we would do it, it’s just not been done. Basically, we have had to take the initiative. Years ago there were charts and care plans at the end of the bed, now it’s all computerised. I can excuse the 3 days of hell in A&E but not these last 4 days on the ward. My Dad is not mobile unless he has a lot of help and he is confused.

Well said, totally agree with you.

Before I became a nurse, I shared many of the same opinions that the 'non-nursing pubic' have about nurses. That all changed once I became one.

I went from a nice 'office job', where I actually had plenty of time to chat with colleagues while making myself another coffee in the staff room. Being able to take my lunch breaks, leaving work on time and getting paid overtime if I had to work late.

I have never seen nurses chatting for hours at the workstation or reading magazines. I am not saying this does not happen, but I personally have never experienced it. All I remember are the long shift, where I was on my feet all day and often without eating and drinking because I did not have time to have a break.

In my experience, the staff that are often seen chatting are not actually the nurses working on the ward. What you need to realise is that wards are visited frequently by other professional groups and specialist nurses. In addition, nurses do have to talk to colleagues; it's how we communicate and collaborate with one another. It does not mean we are chatting about the weather or our upcoming summer holiday.

I have seen shoddy care but have also witnessed exceptional care. All I know about nursing is that it was not for me. I was a good nurse; I had empathy and compassion at the beginning, but a few years down the line, after experiencing bullying from work colleagues, lack of support from senior managers, unrealistic workloads and abuse from patients and family members, it was completely eroded. My mental health took a nose dive, and I stopped caring because I had nothing else to give.

Hence I made the nursing to leave general nursing after eight years, something I have never regretted. I still work in health care, but in a different role. A role where, for the most part, I have time to do my job safely and with compassion. I have time to spend with my clients (service users), and I love it. I wanted to love general nursing, but the whole system is an absolute mess, and I would never recommend nursing as a career to anyone - at least not bedside nursing.

I was in hospital 18 months ago. I was first in an induced coma for 10 days, then on a ward for 2 weeks, followed by 2 further weeks in a side room. I didn't have my teeth brushed for 5 weeks (I'd had a stroke and was unable to do it myself). My hair was washed, whilst I was in bed, once after I'd been in hospital for 4 weeks, by a lovely Healthcare Assistant.

I have been unfortunate to have to spend literally years in hospitals. Matron led teams were very efficient, organised with very high standards. Even the corners of the bed sheets had to be perfect.
Now I see groups of young nurses/HCAs perhaps just completely aimless and chatting. Someone will eventually break from the group and do something.
Mobiles charging all over the place. A very lax attitude with very little urgency to spend the time caring for the patients.
That is my experience.
ICU was much much better, hospices are incredible but why can’t we have care like that everywhere?
I agree I think nurses need to be paid more, valued and incentivised, but standards need to be improved.
Banning mobile use would be s good start.

@LionsandLambs @9outof10cats
Thank you thank yo!
So many posters on here just don't get it. They want to moan and complain but don't want to put themselves out to fight for better conditions for nursing staff. There has to be widespread recognition that few people want these caring roles and we have to significantly improve working conditions for nurses if we are to ease recruitment problems.
I am a teacher. Teachers are leaving in droves. As conditions in other jobs improve with so many roles offering flexible working it makes caring roles look like hard work for little reward.

@PoIIyPandemonium

She's saying there's more patients requiring 1-2-1, or 'specialing' as we call it. It's exactly the same on my ward, and all lot of the other wards in our trust.

This means they need a member of staff with them at all times, which takes the staffing numbers down as there's then less staff to do the other stuff that needs doing.

All 3. Some shifts we will still have the 5 HCA's on, however, the increase of need from patients means these 5 HCA's arent on the floor. We would typically have 1 bay that were patients that couldn't be left and a HCA would stay in that bay all day to 1-1 them (although not 1-1 it would be 1-4) however now we have move than just the 4 patients, that takes more HCA's from being able to go behind curtains or into side rooms to do washes. On a usual shift, we will have 4 HCA's and 2 of those will be in 1-1 and 2 left on the floor. Washing 35 patients alongside the patients that are on 2 hourly turns and pad changes, obs, paperwork, and all the other roles taken on by HCA's is just impossible. We also now only have 3 nurses on shift at a time, for 35 patients. Meaning that we cant go into to everyone either. Someone further up posted a list of standard jobs that are done daily, and that doesn't take into account all the other tasks in specialized areas. I will have patients that require trache care every 2 hours, patients on drains that when they drain a certain amount they need and infusion, that i have to call the blood bank to order, call a porter to collect, get double checked and put in situ. All of that takes time. If i have 3 patients on drains on hourly check, 3 patients on traches on 2 hourly checks, and 9 other patients to care for, my HCA is on the 1-1 bay, who is washing he patients? We find time, we do our best, but its never going to be good enough as a relative would want for their very much loved family members.

My mum was in hospital for a long time in 2012 and then again in 2019. There was a very significant difference in the standard of personal care. In the later period her hands and nails were filthy. She was bed bound and catheterised and had a stoma. When I visited we did her hands and teeth and I bought a shower cap thing off amazon that you used to 'wash' hair.

When she eventually moved to a hospice it was like another world in terms of hygiene, personal care and therapeutic treatments.

Going back 20 years ago, my mum wasn't able to drink for herself. It was only when one of the family were there she got one. No one had the time to hold the cup to her mouth.

It's because they are not listening. Quite a few nurses have responded, trying to explain the reality of nursing, but still, we have posters continuing to bash nurses and complain about poor care. Most people do not want to try and understand the reasons for this or how broken the system is because it's easier to blame nurses for being lazy and without compassion.

Long gone are the days of saying to a patient that you are going to help them have a wash or a shower. If a patient says no for whatever reason, they are not asked again. We used to jolly patients along, saying how much better they would feel etc. When my mum was in hospital I stayed with her, washed her and did all her personal care because at least I knew it had been done. When I was in hospital myself, I wasn’t even asked if I wanted a wash (was on 02) I was too unwell to complain, it was during the beginning of the pandemic as well. Your poor dad x

I have to say I am finding this thread interesting reading. It is very unusual that such a discussion is continuing without being closed down by the All Nurses Are Angels crew as they usually are.
Most people who have used the NHS will have come across the chatting nurses scenario, but few people would dare to criticise the nurses or the NHS n real life as it's become a no-go area.
I posted in here a year or so ago about my poor dad, 84, who was told to turn up at our local A&E by his GP for a routine procedure. It was before covid restrictions were lifted in hospitals, and I was not able to wait with him. He did not have a mobile phone. I asked how long he would be and was told the nurse did not have time to check. I waited in the car fir an hour or so and went back in to ask the three (chatting) nurses if they could update me. No. But they advised me to go home. I asked them to call me when he was ready and was told they would be too busy to do that, and I should call A&E in a couple of hours. My elderly mum called every 30 mins from then and finally managed to get through at 11pm,to be told he had been admitted for the night. Unbelievable.
Where is the humanity the caring, the common sense? And how has it become acceptable to predict that you will be too busy to make a phone call hours in the future? We are too quick to accept the 'too busy' narrative and too quick to justify terrible care because angels.
When I posted my story on here at the time, the knots, people were tying themselves in to justify the scenario was unbelievable.
We accept shoddy care because it's not PC to question it.

My mother was taken in on Thursday and as of last night, hadn’t been washed or changed, despite having clean clothes brought in by family. She isn’t mobile. Family will be doing it, but they work full time and the main person has 4 dc from baby to 11, so it’s difficult to find time.

Can i also say, our nurse's station on a normal day will be home to the ward clerk, the discharge facilitator, a couple of junior Drs, the palliative nurse specialist, the liver nurse specialist, the alcohol liaison nurses, Physios and OT's, dieticians, pharmacy, and a whole host of other nurses/HCP's. The may be discussing plans of care, working on discharges, arranging home adaptions, arranging care packages, and arranging medications for discharge. Just because the nurse's station is full of staff, doesn't necessarily mean those people are responsible for the general care of the patients on the ward.

tarring a whole profession be cause of a minority

This isn't a minority incident though. Dozens and dozens of people are relating their own experiences of this happening.

Last year during the stay in which my family member was not washed he was also left in his own shit and piss for up to 4hrs on several occasions.

It is happening. It may absolutely be down to staffing issues that are not the fault of the staff, but it is happening.

When my family member was in he was basically just monitored to check he wasn't dead, but zero nursing care took place. He wasn't helped to wash, toilet, eat or drink. He was mostly left in bed unless he was shouting in pain.

And yes we have complained to PALS and our MP.

I agree @broomtomb I have to add that I didn't believe my dad at first about his (lack of) treatment and I thought he must be confused. I saw it all too clearly eventually. I would warn anyone now, visit your relative armed with wipes, toothpaste etc and be prepared to do their personal care.

It's impossible to give an accurate wait time in A&E as it's ever changing. When you asked it could have been x hours, but that can all change rapidly if others arrive who are a higher priority, they were suggesting it would be a while by saying it was best to go home. Asking relatives to phone isn't unreasonable, phoning every family would be time consuming and when we used to a lot wouldn't answer so we would have to keep trying. I don't deny standards in some aspects are low, but sometimes expectations are high when really it's the same result regardless. The focus was on looking after your dad, the issues you mentioned didn't impact on that.

^ this!

there is rarely anywhere to sit and use the computer, these are MDT workstations not nurses stations. Many people transiently working on or dropping into a ward are in similar uniforms to staff nurses. I can’t remember the time I saw a stationary nurse or HCA and I work somewhere relatively well staffed and organised. I can’t imagine how anyone in a less staffed unit could have time to sit reading magazines or ‘chatting’. I also suspect that what looks like chat is people discussing patient care and planning. There is also misogyny at play here as you never hear of any male dominated staff groups condemned for chatting.

Yes, thousands of vacancies, trusts are being more proactive in recruitment techniques but until the government sort out pay and training it will get worse rather than better.

@9outof10cats
Exactly. These posters love to complain but are not prepared to put themselves out in anyway to improve conditions. Moaning is easy. Mumsnet is full of moaners. We need posters who stop moaning and start campaigning for better conditions so it becomes easier to recruit nurses.
Cause and effect . Address the causes of poor nurse recruitment and retention and then you have a realistic chance of improving conditions in hospital. Moaning is the easy part. Campaigning to improve conditions is the hard part

They are all advertised yes, and very small uptake. When i applied for my current position i was the only applicant and there were 3 vacancies at the time. We now have more vacancies. I work in an area that isn't popular due to the nature of the patients. We have a lot of alcohol dependant patients, who are verbally and physically aggressive with a lot of social and mental health issues alongside their current medical needs. Its also very manual and staff last a couple of years before they are burned out and often injured they move on to something less demanding. But this is the same all over. In nursing we are encouraged to change roles, as progression isn't handed to you if you stay on the same ward long term, we are told that after 2 years if its not looking like you will progress, move on and learn new skills. But staff are leaving and demand is growing faster than we can cope with. This isn't just impatient either, District nurses are in a very similar state, with more vacancies than the staff can cover.

Have you any idea how heartless and uncaring you sound. High expectations of one phone call!
I don't think it's wildly unreasonable to ask for one phone call actually, which would surely take up less time than answering many calls from relatives.
It's very unreasonable to ask us to phone A&E then not answer the phone for 11 HOURS!
It's very unreasonable to admit an elderly man without telling his elderly wife, who by 11pm was in a state of panic.
None of the above may have 'impacted' on his care, but they certainly 'impacted' on him being treated like an actual human being rather than a widget to be processed.