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Ukraine Invasion: Part 37

997 replies

MagicFox · 14/01/2023 15:52

Welcome all to thread 37. Thanks to everybody contributing to the backbone of these threads (extra hat tip to Ducks and Desdemona for posting daily updates) and to all lurkers too.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
129
Natsku · 29/01/2023 14:18

Hah! Almost want to break down on one now to see if a person comes!

Surplus2requirements · 29/01/2023 16:17

Natsku · 29/01/2023 14:18

Hah! Almost want to break down on one now to see if a person comes!

Breaking down outside GCHQ is a guaranteed way of meeting new people.

They tend to be a bit shouty though

Natsku · 29/01/2023 16:52
Grin
L1ttledrummergirl · 29/01/2023 16:57

Surplus2requirements · 29/01/2023 16:17

Breaking down outside GCHQ is a guaranteed way of meeting new people.

They tend to be a bit shouty though

I did that once. Hit a kerb and snapped a steering axle while picking ds1 up from school.
Some very friendly people stopped pretty quickly and had me drive very slowly through Cheltenham to a garage. My argument that I had rac cover was a bit weak given that I was well aware of where we were. My husband still laughs at me over it.

Fladdermus · 29/01/2023 18:42

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 29/01/2023 14:07

If your car gets engine trouble and you have to stop on one, there is a spontaneous appearance by a very polite person in an unmarked car who helps to get you back on the road as quickly as possible, or so we discovered once. (We had no idea what it was, we just thought we'd be out of the way if we stopped there because there was plenty of space to pass us. Ho hum.)

We had a similar experience on the M1 somewhere between Leeds and Sheffield. Although he was in a police car. Not sure there's any plans to ever land anything there.

blueshoes · 29/01/2023 21:53

Natsku · 29/01/2023 08:19

That is a very heartening article, so good of those Polish mechanics. Also makes me wish I had a useful skill and that's part of the final push (been umming and ahhing over it for a few years so not just because of this) to make me decide to retrain in aircraft maintenance - don't want to be useless.

Aircraft maintenance? That would be amazing. It sounds highly skilled. Would you have to university or a vocational college? Is this something the Finnish government would sponsor as part of national service?

blueshoes · 29/01/2023 22:03

ReleaseTheDucks, appreciate the key takeaways and the additional info on the Iranian explosions. It does not look straightforward that Israel, if they are responsible, is the only actor.

Israel helps Ukraine more than is knownIsrael's ambassador to Germany, Ron Prosor, said this in an interview with WAZ.He called for understanding such a restrained position of Israel in matters of military aid."It's not as simple as it seems. As you know, the Israeli army regularly stops the supply of weapons from Iran to Syria and Lebanon. Among them are Iranian drones and missiles that Russia uses in Ukraine," said Prosor.

Love this one:

"The Leopard 2 was bred to trot on European plains, hide in the shrubs and prey on Russian herds. Stopping it from hunting in the Ukrainian steppe would be against its nature, and the German government has finally realized that too"

MissConductUS · 29/01/2023 22:56

The WSJ is attributing the drone attack on the Iranian armaments factory to Israel, not Ukraine.

Israel Strikes Iran Amid International Push to Contain Tehran - Israeli, American officials discuss new ways to combat Iranian operations

Updated Jan. 29, 2023 3:56 pm ET

Israel carried out a drone strike targeting a defense compound in Iran, as the U.S. and Israel look for new ways to contain Tehran’s nuclear and military ambitions, according to U.S. officials and people familiar with the operation.

Iranian officials said that the country’s air defenses had fended off an attempted attack by three small quadcopters targeting a munitions factory in the city of Isfahan, right next to a site belonging to the Iran Space Research Center, which has been sanctioned by the U.S. for its work on Iran’s ballistic-missile program.

Iran said its air defenses brought down one of the drones while the two others exploded above the warehouse, causing minor damage to the roof.

Iranian Foreign Minister Hossein Amir-Abdollahian called the blast a cowardly strike.

“Such actions cannot impact the determination and intent of our experts for peaceful nuclear progress,” he said, according to government news service PadDolat.

The Israeli military declined to comment.

The strike marks the first known attack carried out by Israel under the new far-right coalition government led by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who sanctioned a series of bold operations inside Iran when he last served in that role from 2009 to 2021.

Israel’s latest strike comes as Israeli and American officials are discussing new ways to combat Iran’s destabilizing operations, including its deepening military cooperation with Russia.

Central Intelligence Agency Director William Burns made an unannounced trip to Israel last week to discuss Iran and other regional issues, according to people familiar with his visit. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is scheduled to arrive in Israel on Monday to continue the U.S.-Israel talks about Iran and other regional issues.

Last week, the U.S. and Israel carried out their largest-ever joint military exercise involving more than 7,500 personnel from both countries and a series of scenarios to test their ability to take out air-defense systems and refuel jet planes—both of which could be key elements of a major military strike on Iran.

Israel’s top general told The Wall Street Journal last week that Israel and the U.S. were preparing for the worst.

Gen. Herzi Halevi, the Israel Defense Forces’ chief of staff, said that the military exercises sent “a very clear message to Iran: If Iran makes mistakes, offense capabilities are getting ready.”

Efforts by President Biden to resurrect a nuclear containment deal with Iran have come to a standstill, but the U.S. has yet to develop an alternative. Mr. Netanyahu has been pushing the U.S. to take a tougher stance against Iran.

The strike marks the first known attack carried out by Israel under the new far-right coalition government led by Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, wearing the blue tie.Photo: ronen zvulun/Shutterstock

At the same time, the U.S. has been pressing Israel to do more to help Ukraine in its war with Russia, especially now that Tehran is providing Moscow with hundreds of drones used to attack Ukraine. Israel has rebuffed pressure to send Ukraine direct military aid, which Russian politicians have warned would imperil Israeli relations with Moscow.

Russia and Israel have had a yearslong understanding that has allowed Israeli warplanes to repeatedly strike Iranian targets inside Syria, where Moscow provides air defenses for President Bashar al-Assad. Israel is worried that open support for Ukraine could imperil its ability to strike Iranian targets in Syria.

Mr. Netanyahu’s new government isn’t expected to offer Ukraine direct military support. But it is expected to continue carrying out covert strikes against Iran’s nuclear and military program.

Strikes like the one over the weekend help damage Iran’s ability to help Russia with the war in Ukraine.

“This is a smart trifecta where Israel can hurt Iran, help Ukraine, and not risk its strategic interests in Syria or run the risk of the diversion of its sensitive military technology to Russia and into Iran,” said Mark Dubowitz, chief executive officer of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a Washington-based think tank critical of Iran.

“Explosive night in Iran,” Mykhailo Podolyak, an adviser to Ukraine’s president, wrote on Twitter in response to the blast in Iran. “[Ukraine] did warn you.”

When Mr. Netanyahu was last in office, he oversaw a series of Israeli strikes on Iran involving small drones like those used over the weekend, according to former Israeli and U.S. officials. His successor, Naftali Bennett, embraced a strategy he called the “Octopus Doctrine,” under which Israel carried out strikes not just against Tehran’s proxies in the Middle East, like Hezbollah, but also against Iran itself as the head of the so-called octopus.

In 2021, Iran’s Atomic Energy Organization said it had thwarted an attack by two quadcopter drones on one of its facilities. Last May, quadcopters were used to target a military site used to develop drone, missile and nuclear technology outside Tehran.

The main target of Saturday’s strike was a warehouse located behind a mall in Isfahan that Iran said was an ammunition storehouse. Video of the explosion posted on social media by witnesses captured a small explosion above a building that appeared to cause minimal damage.

Satellite imagery released on Sunday appeared to show minor damage to the building.

Ronen Solomon, an independent intelligence analyst and author of the Intelli Times blog, said that the small size of the blast indicated that the target wasn’t an ammunition storehouse. Instead, he said, it could have been a lab or military-logistics site.

Public figures in Iran suggested Israel and its Western allies were behind the attack.

“They both need to learn that punishment comes with failure too,” said Mohammad Marandi, who is close to the government and was previously a spokesman for Iran’s nuclear-negotiations team.

Mr. Solomon said satellite imagery showed the warehouse is located across the street from a site belonging to a unit of the Iran Space Research Center—a U.S.-sanctioned organization that has worked with the Shahid Hemmat Industrial Group, which is responsible for Iran’s ballistic missile programs, and the Iranian Ministry of Defense.

The Wall Street Journal was able to confirm Mr. Solomon’s information. Social-media channels close to the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps separately showed a satellite image of the targeted site, which matches the exact area where the Isfahan unit of the Space Research Center is located.

A missile plant owned by the Shahid Hemmat Industrial Group on a site west of Tehran was reportedly targeted by an Israeli strike in September 2021.

Natsku · 30/01/2023 05:20

blueshoes · 29/01/2023 21:53

Aircraft maintenance? That would be amazing. It sounds highly skilled. Would you have to university or a vocational college? Is this something the Finnish government would sponsor as part of national service?

It's at vocational college, still have to see if my Finnish is good enough to pass the entrance exam though. Not something that can be done as part of national service as its longer than the longest service length. Ironically, I'm not sure I'd be able to work with military aircraft afterwards because there's issues for people with dual nationalities, have to find out how insurmountable the issues are.

notimagain · 30/01/2023 07:10

@Fladdermus

We had a similar experience on the M1 somewhere between Leeds and Sheffield. Although he was in a police car. Not sure there's any plans to ever land anything there.

Never been a plans for that sort of thing in the UK that I'm aware of though things may have been different in Germany back in the day (Harrier/Autobahns)

BAe did however a trial/demo with a Jaguar aircraft off a UK Motorway way many years ago.

theaviationgeekclub.com/vintage-footage-shows-jaguar-attack-aircraft-undertaking-motorway-trials/

DesdamonasHandkerchief · 30/01/2023 10:12

Day 339, January 28th. Summary of #Arestovych and #Feygin daily broadcast
Posted on 30 January 2023

⚡️ Battlefield overview
Ukraine holds defence in Vuhledar and Bahmut with Russian infantry and VDV sustaining personnel losses. Russia keeps shelling Ukrainian cities and residential areas.

⚡️Bahmut, Soledar & Avdiivka
Russia is sending infantry and VDV without artillery support to attack Bahmut and is sustaining heavy losses with very limited advances. Recent photo and video evidence of an unsuccessful Russian attempt to advance near Soledar emerged in support of this trend.

⚡️Vuhledar
Russia hit Vuhledar 299 times with rockets, rocket launchers and artillery in one day to support 34 attacks on the town. The Russian attacks were unsuccessful, and the Ukrainian defence holds.

⚡️Kherson
Russian artillery hit the city of Kherson, including residential areas. Ukrainian artillery responded by striking the Russian military position on the East bank of the Dnipro River.

⚡️Russian attacks on Ukrainian cities
Russia keeps shelling residential areas, including Kherson and Konstantinovka. In Konstantinovka, near Bahmut, 3 civilians died as a result of the Russian S300 rocket attack. The S300 are being used to target Ukrainian cities in close proximity to the frontline and are difficult to intercept.
President Zelensky has stressed that Ukraine needs longer-range missiles to target S300 rocket launch systems before they are able to cause more damage to civilian infrastructure and residential areas, as was the case in Mykolaiv before Kheron city liberation and as it the case now in the towns near Bahmut.

⚡️Prigozhin, Girkin & internal Russian conflicts
Now that Prigozhin cannot confront General Gerasimov, he keeps attacking Grkin in an internal skirmish. In an attempt to stay in power & keep Wagner’s influence over Russian domestic politics, Prigozhin is trying to increase his status in Russia by critiquing Girkin and his loss of Slovyansk in 2014. Nevertheless, Girkin/Strelkov is associated with FSB and Wagner cannot afford an actual conflict with FSB.

⚡️Fighter planes & missiles for Ukraine
The UK and Poland are suggesting supplying Ukraine with Storm Shadow missiles (air-plane-based). Ukrainian representatives have also stated that Ukraine needs jet fighters (ideally 180+ to protect the whole territory of Ukraine). The F-16, coupled with an adequate support system, would be a bigger game changer than HIMARS and are superior to Russian aviation.
The supply of warplanes and longer-range missiles may be the main focus of the next Ramstein meeting, as these are the weapons that will put a final nail in the Russian army’s coffin.

⚡️Russia’s artillery & tank problem
The current average number of artillery shells used by the Russian army is 15k per day, which is a drop from the average of 20k in the Fall and 40k when Russia was attacking Severodonetsk & Lysychansk in the Summer.
The Russian artillery is the basis of Russian war strategy and the lack of artillery shells is forcing Russia to change tactics, sending infantry ahead without artillery support.
It remains unclear if Russia can solve the artillery shell supply problems, as they have already taken part of the Belarusian shell storage and the capacity of the Kremlin to mobilise the Russian military-industrial complex is questionable.
Russia has also lost over 3000 tanks, being forced to bring tanks from storage. Arestovych estimates that only 20% of 15k stored tanks can be used (resorting to cannibalism for tank parts). This process will also take some time.
Meanwhile, Germany is increasing the production of tank & artillery shells, with only one company capable of producing 450k shells per year.
Soon, Russia can end up in a situation where the Russian troops are outnumbered and technologically outgunned – something that Russia has no strategy to cope with.

⚡️Russian generals questioning their own next offensive
The Russian political elite is still planning to attack Lyman & Bahmut at the end of February/beginning of March. Meanwhile, Russian generals are questioning their own potential and there is talk of using the current forces to fortify the Russian defences instead of attempting another offensive operation (which would use up the critical Russian army resources).
Ukraine is ready to defend and will harass Russian troops, depleting their military potential. Moreover, by May, Ukraine will be equipped with Western weapons, ready to retake & liberate all the Ukrainian territories. Thus, in the next 2-4 months we could see catastrophic developments for the Russian army in Ukraine.

⚡️Russian oil & Sanctions
The US & EU are discussing further price cap on Russian diesel fuel and lowering the price cap on Russian oil from March.
Ukraine has started sanctioning Russian railroads, which may be a signal for further sanction from the EU.

⚡️NATO General won election in the Czech Republic
The ex-NATO General Petr Pavel, known for his pro-Ukrainian position, won the presidential race in the Czech Republic. The Czechs are known for their military industry and production capabilities.
This is coupled with the EU cutting Hungary’s Russian oil re-export capabilities, which is a signal for all the politicians that are compromising EU & NATO security by promoting Russian interests. A pro-Russian Orban, who is compromising EU security and Hungary’s interest to appease Russia has no political future, unlike the pro-EU/pro-Ukraine political opposition in Hungary.

⚡️Europe getting rid of the Russian corrupt money
For decades (since the ’74 oil crisis), Russia has been using energy (oil, gas and Rosatom nuclear company) to corrupt European politics and cultivate a generation of hand-fed politicians that would defend the Russian Federation at the expense of law, decency & European interests.
Germany has surprised many by becoming independent from Russian gas in one year and has nationalised two key gas distribution companies, further limiting Russian influence.
After the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2014, Orban signed a contract with Rosatom, going against European interests. The end of Orban’s rule may also lead to anti-corruption investigations regarding Orban’s dealings with Russia, Rosatom and the Russian oil&gas industry.

⚡️Turkey
While racing for re-election Erdogan is obliged to respond to provocations (such as the burning of the Quran). Nevertheless, the ascension of Sweden to NATO will keep being negotiated amongst allies. The main advantage of the Western democratic system is that, unlike totalitarian regimes, the system allows different voices to be heard, arriving at a consensus that is wiser than the whims of a single man at the head of any totalitarian regime.

⚡️Saakashvili
Saakashvili’s COVID diagnosis has been confirmed. Due to untreated poisoning, Saakashvili keeps losing weight and his condition cannot improve while the treatment is denied.
Feygin will soon announce a new public action to pressure the Georgian Government (some members of which are enjoying double citizenship of France and Germany) to respect human rights and allow Saakashvili to be treated in an independent medical clinic.

Next stream is on Tuesday, 31st of January.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 30/01/2023 10:15

www.understandingwar.org/backgrounder/ukraine-conflict-updates

ISW is publishing an abbreviated campaign update today, January 29. This report focuses on the impact of delays in sending high-end weapons systems to Ukraine on Ukraine’s ability to take advantage of windows of opportunity throughout this war.

Delays in the provision to Ukraine of Western long-range fires systems, advanced air defense systems, and tanks have limited Ukraine’s ability to take advantage of opportunities for larger counter-offensive operations presented by flaws and failures in Russian military operations

The military aid provided by the US-led Western coalition has been essential to Ukraine’s survival, and this report’s critiques illustrate the importance of that aid as well as its limitations.

The war has unfolded so far in three major periods. The Russians had the initiative and were on the offensive from February 24 through July 3, 2022, whereupon their attacks culminated. The Ukrainians seized the initiative and began large-scale counteroffensives in August, continuing through the liberation of western Kherson Oblast on November 11. Ukraine has been unable to initiate a new major counter-offensive since then, allowing the conflict to settle into positional warfare and allowing the Russians the opportunity to regain the initiative if they choose and to raise the bar for future Ukrainian counteroffensives even if they do not. The pattern of delivery of Western aid has powerfully shaped the pattern of this conflict.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 37
PerkingFaintly · 30/01/2023 12:11

Brew and thanks to all the stalwart posters keeping us informed.

PerkingFaintly · 30/01/2023 12:36

I think it's time we named Prigozhin what he is: a warlord.

Putin is a megalomaniac dictator who has gathered power into his hands by changing the constitution, by punishing/murdering those who oppose him, and by threatening and misinforming the populace at the polls. Nonetheless the constitution still exists.

If warlords take over, there will be no constitution.

My understanding is that warlord periods are usually terrible in countries' histories. Effectively civil war (even when nominally fighting an external enemy), with the accompanying civilian depredations. There's not even any way of negotiating a peace because... who do you negotiate with? They're all splinter groups jockeying for advantage.

Mind you, things in Russia are currently so broken that the constitutionally elected dictator is using the state apparatus to send hundreds of thousands of his own population to be slaughtered. So maybe having a constitution isn't providing any value to Russia at the moment. Would anarchy and warlords really be worse? Competing warlords each limit the power of the others (but using ways that mash civilians).

Don't know what to think about this.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 30/01/2023 12:57

I think warlords would be worse as they would divide the country up between them and quite possibly start fighting each other. Good for the rest of the world until the strongest wins, but terrible for the population .... and some of them might have access to nuclear weopons. Would you trust Prigozhin with one?

Personally I think claims that Russia will entirely fall apart are very unlikely to come to pass.

notimagain · 30/01/2023 12:57

Would anarchy and warlords really be worse? Competing warlords each limit the power of the others (but using ways that mash civilians).

The prospect of what happened in Somalia but with nuclear weapons in play?

No thanks....

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somali_Civil_War

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 30/01/2023 13:01

Kyiv Indep Telegram

⚡️Jerusalem Post: Attack on Iranian military plant was 'phenomenal success (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/jerusalem-post-attack-on-iranian-military-plant-was-phenomenal-success).’
The Jan. 29 attack on Iran’s Isfahan military plant was “a tremendous success” despite Iranian claims of a failure, the Jerusalem Post reported, citing unnamed Western intelligence sources and other foreign sources.

⚡️Satellite images show no damage (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/satellite-images-shows-no-damage-to-kamikaze-drone-plant-in-iran-after-alleged-strike) to kamikaze drone plant in Iran after alleged strike.

⚡️WSJ: Military aid to Ukraine accelerates as Western allies worry (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/wsj-military-aid-to-ukraine-accelerates-as-western-allies-worry-time-might-be-on-russias-side) ‘time might be on Russia’s side.’
Some Western officials now fear Russia can dominate any lengthy war of attrition, keeping deploying men and means into the war, the Wall Street Journal reported citing unnamed Western officials.

⚡️Dmytro Pavlychko, famous Ukrainian poet, co-author of country's sovereignty declaration, dies at 93 (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/dmytro-pavlychko-famous-ukrainian-poet-co-author-of-countrys-independence-declaration-dies-at-93)
President Volodymyr Zelensky wrote that people would remember Pavlychko as one of the authors of the Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine and as one of the founders of the People's Movement of Ukraine.

⚡️Reuters: Stoltenberg urges South Korea (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/reuters-stoltenberg-urges-south-korea-to-step-up-military-support-for-ukraine) to step up military support for Ukraine.

⚡️BBC: Boris Johnson says Putin threatened (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/bbc-boris-johnson-says-putin-threatened-him-with-missile-strike-in-run-up-to-russias-invasion) him with missile strike in run-up to Russia's invasion.

⚡️PM Shmyhal: Ukraine plans
(kyivindependent.com/news-feed/pm-shmyhal-ukraine-plans-to-join-eu-within-2-years)to join EU within 2 years.
Ukraine has "a very ambitious plan" to join the European Union within the next two years, Prime Minister Denys Shmyhal told Politico.

⚡️Poland says Ukraine may join EU (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/poland-says-ukraine-could-join-eu-in-several-years-but-after-victory-over-russia) in several years, but after victory over Russia.

⚡️President's Office: Poland ready (kyivindependent.com/news-feed/presidents-office-poland-ready-to-supply-ukraine-with-f-16-fighters-in-coordination-with-nato) to supply Ukraine with F-16 fighters in coordination with NATO.
Poland is ready to provide Ukraine with long-requested F-16 fighter jets in coordination with NATO, Ukraine's Presidential Office head Andrii Yermak said on Jan. 30.

Much lower personnel and equipment losses than the last few days. There have been rumours of Russia occupying a couple settlements north of Bakhmut; I wonder if the previous high losses for several days were due to fighting over these settlements and now it's stopped.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 37
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 30/01/2023 13:08

UNITED24 Media Telegram

🇺🇦 Coursera launched a free English-language course on the history and culture of Ukraine

The situation in the east of Ukraine is complex, but under control
This was stated by the head of the Ministry of Defense Reznikov in an interview with the Canadian CBC TV channel.

Italy will not provide Ukraine with offensive weapons but will help with defensive weapons, – the head of the Foreign Ministry, Antonio Tajani

Germany will transfer 78 military tractors for heavy machinery to Ukraine

During the shelling of Kherson, the Russians damaged the ship, oil products flowed into the Dnipro, — Kherson Regional Military Administration

105 Vector drones will be delivered from Germany for Ukrainian intelligence, — the official website of Quantum-Systems
The order will be financed by the German government.

The Kherson Regional Military Administration showed the Berislav district now...
The Russians attack peaceful settlements with prohibited incendiary ammunition.

Ukraine needs the supply of fighter jets
This opinion was expressed by the chairman of the Munich Security Conference and Angela Merkel's long-time adviser, Christoph Heusgen, reports DW.
He specified that it could be the American F16 or Soviet aircraft from the old stocks of the GDR. According to international law, countries can supply weapons to Ukraine, including combat aircraft, Heusgen said.

❕North Korea could gain vital lifeline from arms sales to Russia, — Bloomberg
Russia's need for weapons to continue a full-scale war in Ukraine can be a salvation for North Korea, journalists believe.
North Korea, as Bloomberg points out, has a surplus of weapons, especially 20th-century artillery, which is currently experiencing a kind of "revival" on the Ukrainian front. North Korea also has a large amount of ammunition for such artillery.
One of the military experts believes that 122-mm and 152-mm artillery shells will be on Putin's “wish list.”

Wisent 1 MC will be provided to Ukraine to break through minefields
The Wisent 1 is based on the Leopard 1 and can perform various roles. Delivery is planned to be completed by the end of 2023. None of the companies discloses how many units of equipment will be transferred. [photo underneath]

Ukraine Invasion: Part 37
ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 30/01/2023 13:12

Live: Ukraine Telegram

The head of NATO's Military Committee, Admiral Rob Bauer, said that the Alliance is ready for a direct confrontation with Russia.
He also believes that Russia's strategic goals go beyond Ukraine, as Moscow seeks to restore the size of the former Soviet Union.

Yesterday, the occupiers fired 42 times at Kherson region, and 13 times at Kherson itself. They hit the port, the regional clinical hospital, a school, a bank and residential buildings. Three people were killed and eight others were wounded.

Russia will not use nuclear weapons during the war in Ukraine, says Christoph Goisgen, head of the Munich Security Conference.
Vladimir Putin knows "that he cannot use nuclear weapons, because then he will lose the support of his most important partner, China, which has warned against the use of nuclear weapons," he said in an interview with the Rheinische Post and General-Anzeiger newspapers.
"He will not risk it. Without China, Russia is isolated in the world," said Goisgen, explaining that Putin's threats to use nuclear weapons are primarily to "intimidate us in Germany and Europe.

PerkingFaintly · 30/01/2023 14:04

Yes, point taken that in Russia's case nuclear weapons would be in the mix.

Somalia was much in my mind. Thinking about it, that was a lethal mixture of state having control and sponsoring warlords. Maximum horror with maximum deniability.

Very different from Nazi Germany's "industrial killing machine", but quite like Putinist Russia's freewheeling killers.

Sorry, I'm not actually making a point. Just thinking aloud and rambling.

Natsku · 30/01/2023 14:53

Competing warlords definitely would worry me more than Putin. The risk of a nuclear accident (or even intentional action) would go up so much.

notimagain · 30/01/2023 15:47

@PerkingFaintly

Sorry, I'm not actually making a point. Just thinking aloud and rambling.

Apologies not required, I know the number one priority has to be getting the war ended on Ukraine's terms but post that there's certainly a hell of a lot of quite disconcerting "what if...."/"what happens when....." stuff to think about...

The west doesn't have a great record recently when it comes to what happens in nations post conflict...

TheABC · 30/01/2023 16:59

I suspect the 'what happens next' is quietly seething in the backs of the FSB superiors in Moscow. They will be looking for a way to maintain the status quo, otherwise they are as fucked as the rest of the nation. Like the rest of you, I am sceptical about Russia breaking up as most of the regions have been carefully stripped of competent politicians and fiscal control.

MissConductUS · 30/01/2023 17:33

@ReleaseTheDucksOfWar, the Wisent 1 pictured at the bottom of your post is just as crucial as the Leopards various countries are sending, as are all of the infantry fighting vehicles and armored personnel carriers. Tanks are just one section of the combined arms orchestra. All have to work together to retake territory and breach the defenses the Russians have constructed. Each element makes up for vulnerabilities in the others. Tanks, for example, have firepower and mobility but lack situational awareness. Tanks don't have windows, just sights for the commander and gunner. That's why they need infantry around them.

This video shows just how complex a task combined arms operations is, and why the UAF are now being trained for it in Germany. The Russians have repeatedly shown that they are incapable of combined arms operations, which is one reason why I'm skeptical that any offensive they are planning will achieve much.

ReleaseTheDucksOfWar · 30/01/2023 18:02

Now that was extremely interesting.

What occurs to me is the absolute overriding necessity of secure communications in an operation that complex, and also what do you do if the land is not level for mine-clearing?

Wonder if they role-play out what happens if you lose the de-mining vehicle, if the smoke screen is penetrated by infra-red or something ... oh, all sorts of possibilities and permutations are possible!

... and also, the military survive on alphabet soup.

Thanks, @MissConductUS

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