What can we do about dangerous dogs?

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There were 10 fatal dog attacks in the UK last year. A massive number compared to previous years. And, sadly, another already this year.

I have seen 100 suggestions over the years on Mumsnet, but there are always objections to taking any form of action against the dogs.

If it is suggested that more breeds are banned, there are the people who argue that no breed is intrinsically dangerous, and that is the fault of irresponsible owners, attracted to certain breeds, that any dog attacks. But how do we stop this? Irresponsible owners are not going to attend courses on how to be a responsible dog owner.

And then people argue that other dogs can dangerous - the dangerous retriever or poodle or spaniel. But these dogs are never found on the list of dogs causing fatal attacks. They are almost always the bullies, bulldogs, mastiffs, huskies, Rottweilers and Alsatians. You have to go back to 2015 to find an incident that is not one of these dogs. Since 1981 there are four examples which are not these dogs, out of 62. Two of these four are Jack Russells, who I think only don't cause more deaths because of their size.

And I think that's the key, to an extent. A human stands a fighting chance of escaping from many vicious dogs, but they simply cannot beat any of the breeds named above.

I personally do think it's in these dogs' nature to be aggressive. I think it's in their DNA (and I know it is in some other breeds too, but they don't have the strength of those above). But I understand that some people think it's all about the owner and the training. So if we don't ban breeds, so that anyone who notices one being led around their estate can report them, what do we do?

My job involves walking around estates for many hours a week, and I often walk past these dogs, and I think that there is absolutely no way that the owner could prevent the dog attacking. They are just too strong. It is becoming really quite intimidating in ways in which I haven't noticed in previous years.

So rather than a 'should we ban these breeds?' thread I suppose I'm asking what those people who think it's down to to nurture and not nature think would work in protecting the public (and owners' families - and themselves) from dog attacks?

I've posted this before, possibly on this thread, but it specifically addresses what's been happening regarding dogs' biting and killing in the UK. It turns up some surprising evidence, and there is no easy solution, but well worth a read.

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/dec/12/lockdown-bad-breeds-or-just-poor-training-why-are-dog-bites-on-the-rise-in-britain

All this talk of banning dogs is utterly ridiculous and overly hysterical. As other posters have said, you’d be banning routine household objects first as statistically they are more likely to harm people.

The reason why it’s headline news is that it’s so rare. Men murdering women on a weekly basis doesn’t make the news, it’s sadly seen as commonplace. We aren’t looking to ban relationships with dodgy men, are we?

This is a really tragic story but think we need to remember just what a rarity this is. This gets debated often on here as many Mumsnet posters detest dogs so it’s an opportunity for them to vent.

As for what to do, education is the key. Choosing a breed is about finding a good fit for your family. I know my limitations so have three Labradors who are a breed of easy going types. For example unless my walking was going to increase from an hour to about four I wouldn’t get a husky. And don’t abuse dogs, an abused dog - much like every being on the planet - is an unstable one. Anyone who harms their dog should have the book chucked at them and be barred from future pet ownership.

As to those who say that all dogs should be on leads all the time. Again, energy needs to be expended and my dogs being walked through country fields are probably doing three times what I am as they run around off lead. That’s needed. You can always tell an inexperienced dog owner by their lack of training on recall and their insistence on constant lead walking. Again, too much energy won’t make for a calm dog on your return. Mine literally can barely lift their heads off the floor after their walk for many hours. They’re chilled out and have had all needs catered for.

That is a good article. I'm extremely intrigued as to what her cross looks like! A huge dog crossed with a JRT?!

One point I will repeat is people saying about how much exercise dogs need, that many people own high-energy breeds and don't exercise them enough. Yes, but also these type of breeds are often highly intelligent.

They need a lot of time and stimulation, playing, learning new tricks, activities (many of which can be done in a house!), as much as they need exercise. I rarely see anyone saying that.

I have a huge dog. She was bred in a 2 up 2 down box room on a questionable estate by a criminal who wanted to make money. And did. Her dam rejected her and I got wind of it via the grape vine and took her to hand rear her before her dam killed her. Her siblings were sold for a ridiculous amount of money to I dread to think who.

Potential dangerous dog. Hand reared. Not socialised with other dogs. Likely her parents weren't from great stock either (I've since learned her mother and sister killed a dog recently, of course this doesn't mean they're likely to kill a human however).

I run with her as I can't let her off lead unless I'm 100% certain there's nobody about. I do live near vast farmland however. I kick a ball for her in my parents huge garden often so she can let off steam. I play with her, I do activities with her. I make sure she safely meets lots of people.

I live alone and I'm frightened of men for legitimate reason and she makes me feel much safer, but had I not acquired her the way I did, I'd have not got her because of the amount of time and the logistics involved, in keeping her.

I don't know what the answer is at all. Many people who own dogs shouldn't. I definitely think the first step is something enforcing a ban on irresponsible breeding. But what, and how can this be done is difficult. Puppy farming is already illegal but my dog originated from something like that. People are doing it all over the country. Burglary is illegal too, of course nobody does that.

Education would definitely help, around dog ownership, and around How to respond to dogs, dog behaviour etc etc but as if our government are going to do that.

As others have said, it makes headline news because it isn't very common. Of course one death via dogs is too many, but the powers that be just aren't going to see it that way.

I must clarify, I'm not frightened of men per se, more so walking around at night, breaking into my house etc etc!

One third of this is already on existence. By law all dogs have to be microchipped and registered on a APHA/DEFRA compliant register to their keeper by the time they are 8 weeks old - so before they leave the breeder.
Every week I see chipped puppies or puppies with chips on non-compliant registers who then hold the chip number to ransom for the new owners trying to move it to a compliant register. This has been the case since 2007 but the legislation has no teeth and no one wants to be responsible for policing it.
Don't get me started on all the 'fertility clinics' who are clearly breaching the veterinary surgeons act in helping create pregnancies on the bill breeds. Finally the illegal cropping on puppies ears that is also going.
No one has any interest in policing dog breeding or ownership in the UK.

Yes certain dogs should be banned.
Say 15/20 years time so those already here won't have to be destroyed.
Also all dogs should be kept on a lead at all times except on private property or designated areas. there's at least 3 local big secure fields round here you can hire really cheap.
Don't get me wrong I do like dogs and see them daily at work I just don't see the need to allow certain dogs that have the ability to really hurt/kill someone easily.

Right, but I wasn't talking about "high level obedience". I was replying to a poster who talked about the health/happiness benefits of having a dog as a pet.

Nevertheless, you said it yourself - to do it at the level you want. You want these dogs, you don't need them.

(Incidentally, the Crufts agility competition has categories for medium and small dogs and has been won by spaniels, border collies, etc. So I'm sure you could adapt.)

We need more green spaces and parks, but in reality instead of that we name new housing developments with high density occupation which make matters worse.

Exactly what I was thinking. "I want"....

That's lovely for you, but you can get all that from a spaniel. Nobody needs these 100lb timebombs.

Ever heard of spaniel rage or is your knowledge of dogs limited to "Dogs bad!"?

Thank you OP for your opening comments and facts as to which dogs are almost always those who have killed.

I would like to see restrictions on certain breeds (pure or crossbred) and some on who can have a dog (and indeed other domestic pets).

I'd rather be harmed by a routine household object than mauled by a dog. Wouldn't you?

Random checks by dog wardens. Those caught without a licence have the dog removed, and a heavy fine.

All dogs should be muzzled in public, dog licences return, new dog wardens funded by licences and dogs removed and destroyed if no muzzle. It’s harsh and the dodgy people that have dogs likely to cause a problem will avoid the licence but overall it would make everyone safer.

Dogs that attack well it is likely the owners fault and poor dog but some people will never be educated. Trouble with MN it tends to look overall at situations from a reasonable persons perspective because it is a very moderate site.

There are countries within Europe where certain breeds are banned or have to wear a muzzle and ba on a lead in public.

Paying a small fee in terms of a dog tax to keep a register of local dogs would also be good. Enforcement might be difficult, but a little brightly coloured disc on the collar and note with the microchip details can help enforce it.

I am a dog owner and would be happy to cmply with something like this.

8 pages of arguments here, pros and cons etc..for what?
Muzzle all dogs the moment you take them out of the house. Ban dangerous breeds. That’s it, end of.

OP, I agree we’ve reached a point where something has to be done.
I own two medium-sized dogs and am a ‘dog person’.
When I lived in USA, dogs were not allowed off-leash in public areas and there were various dog parks that were assigned in country parks for dogs to be socialised and run around.
I honestly think this is the way to go. I don’t think dogs need to be muzzled if they are kept on a leash.
I live in an area with lots of open space and NT land, and it’s the same every time…..even yesterday, I was out enjoying a walk with DH and teen DS (didn’t bring the dogs) and three off lead dogs - a collie and two big labs - came bolting up to us with the owner trailing behind, initially out of sight. It terrifies me when dogs come running up because you can never be entirely sure how they’re going to be. The owner couldn’t have cared less and that attitude is so common.

I keep my dogs on leads in public all of the time, mainly because no dog has 100% recall if distracted (I grew up helping to train sheep dogs) and because I know that they have a private field where they can run around off-leash.

Too many people have dogs without having a large enough private garden for their needs so have to rely on walking them on public ground. If you have to walk your dog on land that isn’t yours, either don’t have a dog, have a small dog or keep it on a lead.
And ban bully dogs….literally no one ‘needs’ that breed.

Going back to a couple of strange comments earlier in the thread - pugs aren't a bull breed and wouldn't be included in legislation.

Restrict breeds and size allowed. Make it law that dogs must always be on a proper lead and muzzled and ban those idiotic extending leads. Licensing to be strictly enforced. Create an environment where fewer dogs are kept as pets.

I'm sure I'll be called unreasonable but having the same discussions over and over every time someone is killed by a dog is far more unreasonable. 10 people in a year! And if the number quoted of 200,000 dog bites recorded by the NHS every year (how many more not recorded?) is true then we really need public debate about the validity of keeping such dangerous animals.

I'd ban any type of dog known to be dangerous (evidence based) and also pugs/other dogs bed to have worse health. I'd probably ban dog walking of large packs. I'd stop people owning large numbers of big dogs. I'd stop breeding of fighting dogs.

Oh for goodness' sake.

a) Rage syndrome is rare and also usually seen as a problem to be treated, and therefore contrasts heavily with the idea of deliberately breeding massive dogs for strength and aggression;
b) I'd fancy my chances against a spaniel having an episode much more than against a 100lb muscle dog;
c) You know exactly what point I was making, so feel free to substitute "spaniel" for any other small to medium dog if it makes you feel better (even though rage syndrome can happen to other breeds than spaniels, but you know, my dog knowledge is limited apparently);
d) Stop assuming that anyone who disagrees with you is misinformed.

I'd rather be bitten/mauled by a dog than, raped, beaten, kidnapped, tortured or murdered by a man.

The dog knows not what it does, a man is clearly capable of understanding right from wrong.

ban all men in public places, keep them on leads and handcuff them in public if they must go out.

Statistically I'm more likely to be raped than mauled by a dog.

It's just all so ridiculous...and the above is sarcasm.

just ban private breeding and private sales of dogs and bring a law in that all dogs must be walked on a lead at all times in public places, all dogs must have valid insurance and a licence that must be available to be produced at anytime when requested.

If your dog is involved in a single bite incident be it against a child/adult in public it's PTS. If your dog is deemed a nuisance jumping on members of the public and causing annoyance you get a fine for an "out of control dog". The fine gets bigger every time your dog jumps on someone. A dog under control on a lead has no ability to jump on people just minding their own business walking in a public place 100meters ahead.

We have legislation. The Control of Dogs Act 1992 and the microchipping of dogs (England) 2015 and dangerous dogs act 1991. There is also Lucy's law that was added to the animal welfare act of 2016 in 2020.
It is not lack of legislation it is that no one has the funding to police the existing legislation.

If you read the detail of all this legislation it covers nearly everything people want it requires pressure on the government to fund it, but there is no money.

This has been pointed out a few times, here and on the other repetitive 'bad dog' threads.

Nobody here really wants to hear that!

Reasonable dog owners and breeders already comply to the legislation and many go beyond it.

Shite dog owners and breeders don't bother. And wouldn't no matter what laws were introduced. It isn't legislation that is required. It is adequate policing.

As many dog owners have said many times, by all means introduce licensing. But ring fence that money at local level to help fund dog warden with realistic powers. From dog poo fines to removal of dangerous dogs or ill treated ones. Most of us would support that at a voluntary level, according to the depth of our pockets. Because, well, we actually like dogs!

Too many people have dogs without having a large enough private garden for their needs so have to rely on walking them on public ground. If you have to walk your dog on land that isn’t yours, either don’t have a dog, have a small dog or keep it on a lead.
And ban bully dogs….literally no one ‘needs’ that breed.

I agree with this. I think we should think twice about people in flats owning dogs unless they are ground floor and have a garden. There is a communal garden in my building but that’s for everyone and it’s not as if they can leave their dog there while they WFH or get on with housework. We have at least 2 irresponsible owners out of the few dog owners who live in my building. One let their dog pee inside the building and didn’t clean it up. And the second irresponsible dog owner let her dog run down from one of the upper floors off leash - which is when it ran and clawed me.

I believe if they had their own gardens this would be less likely to happen. I get the impression that the second owners dog doesn’t get out much and is full of energy the limited times it’s let out to go anywhere.

Too many people have dogs without having a large enough private garden for their needs so have to rely on walking them on public ground. If you have to walk your dog on land that isn’t yours, either don’t have a dog, have a small dog or keep it on a lead.
And ban bully dogs….literally no one ‘needs’ that breed.

And that's why we all need more green spaces, instead of being stuffed like sardines in parks the size of a handkerchief surrounded by huge developments because of greedy developers and even greedier councils.