Cultural circumcision in babies/young boys

[junipermarten]

1 of my DS's is circumcised due to a medical issue, he was 3 at the time and it was bloody horrific.

When he was going through it, a good friend gave me tips on after care and offered the number of a private doctor. She has sons who were circumcised shortly after birth for religious reasons.

I personally don't agree with circumcision unless medically required however I respect others choices for religious reasons.

It got me thinking about the high % of boys in the US who are circumcised for cultural reasons, just over 2/3rds. Why is it so prevalent there?

I was having a look at % of male pop per country and the highest were mainly Islamic, but also Samoa was almost 100% which surprised me but apparently its cultural as opposed to religious (I think).

Finally speechless. eh?

I love it when someone doesn't like a response and suggests 'flipping this'.

The core of the proposition that 'it's awful' is that science and medicine say it's not.

What it boils down to therefore is a belief that it's awful.

But belief is baaaaaad. You and several others have stated this many times.

• The core of the argument against the proposition that 'it's awful'...

There are numbers of men who are campaigning for this so your assumption that there is no harm done is flawed

its also about consent, wait until the child is gillick competent if they feel they want to have a link with their religious requirements etc

Interesting you are fighting and arguing so hard against a human consenting to what is done with his body

Anxiety you’re not coming across well at all. Nobody is speechless, the previous poster is refusing to engage with you goading them.

To answer your question, the victims are tiny babies who can’t consent to a medically unnecessary procedure. If it’s so wonderful why don’t all men choose it when they get to 18? Why aren’t they lining up to improve their lives by removing this unnecessary piece of skin? Maybe because when they grow up and see how it improves their sex life, the comfort and health of their penis and isn’t that hard to keep clean, they realise it’s just not necessary.

There are many reasons why cut men can’t speak out. Try some empathy instead of self-righteousness and they might open up to you?

Dozens, hundreds of men may well campaign against it.

Doesn't mean it causes damage. Doesn't contradict the medical evidence.

Meanwhile, millions of men live comfortably with circumcision.

Babies and children get a lot done to them without consent, including medical stuff that may or may not be necessary, depending on what some groups believe.

Tbf I did say a post (not of theirs) made me speechless but you’re right, I am not engaging with that poster as I can see what they are doing (as can others).

Do I have to second guess my children's covid vaccines because my idiot cousin thinks vaccinations are a government plot to microchip everyone?

It's a sincere belief that is not based on an iota of scientific evidence, just like the sincere belief that circumcision is awful and does harm.

Very interesting that an argument that includes the scientific evidence is now seen as intolerable. Yet denigration of religious beliefs is fine, in a progressive society, as is intemperate language, hyperbole, and outright hate speech.

FYI
Adult male circumcision is practised for many reasons and is not at all uncommon. Overall, it is the world's most popular surgery. and there are indications that there are solid medical benefits to it, with few if any drawbacks. It is expected that demand for the procedure will rise in coming decades.

data.unaids.org/pub/report/2007/jc1360_male_circumcision_en.pdf

@mathanxiety there is a massive difference between an adult male consenting to be circumcised, most likely for medical reasons, and a newborn baby who does not have a medical reason for circumcision and cannot consent. I'm surprised you can't see that, though I know you are in the US.

That’s only in relation to AIDS and countries where that is at a level dangerous to the general population. I’ve heard of picking and choosing stats to fit your argument, but really? But then your name is math anxiety so probably shouldn’t trust your maths skills?

There’s a difference in giving babies preventative medicine to protect life and enhance health, and circumcising an infant because of tradition, the religious practice of which is responsible for its “popularity”. Not adult men choosing it for themselves, but infants having it done to them.

you’ve yet to produce any scientific evidence that supports your claim and is convincing.

the scientific and medical communities are generally against needless and risky surgery unless the benefits outweigh the risk. You have not proved that the benefits of cutting off the foreskin of a baby out weigh the risks. Only argued that it’s useful for some people with medical need that is only seen after sexual maturity and say that those that have had it done are just getting on with their lives happier than ever. Both broad generalisations without scientific proof.

Absolutely disgusting and indefensible practice.

Babies are subject to all sorts of decisions they are not consulted about - on vaccinations, for example.

I am sure that many of the staunch anti vaxxers were vaccinated as children and would not consent to that as adults. Is there a consensus that they are fools, and that people who refuse covid vaccines should get over themselves? I myself received two vaccinations as a baby, smallpox and BCG (polio was administered on a sugar lump). Yet it was considered medically necessary for my own DCs to have many more shots - MMR, DTP, and polio, gardasil, meningitis, chicken pox, hep B, and a few others. Medicine evolves, and sometimes in strange ways, clearly sometimes in ways that the British public (a certain slice of it on MN anyway) isn't yet ready to accept. Is it possible that circumcision of babies will see an uptick in areas of the world where adult men are presenting themselves for the procedure in rising numbers for medical reasons? Would that be acceptable?

the scientific and medical communities are generally against needless and risky surgery unless the benefits outweigh the risk.
I want to see your evidence for this, given that circumcision is the world's most popular surgical procedure, performed by HCPs.
Who are these rogue doctors who are performing such risky procedures?
Where are the medical organisations who license them and why are they not taking urgent steps to stop it?

You have not proved that the benefits of cutting off the foreskin of a baby out weigh the risks.
You're asking me to share your belief that there are risks here.
But you have not proved that there are risks. You've used a lot of emotive terms, and you've stated your feelings and your beliefs about the procedure, now turning your attention to risks you feel are involved. You've supported others who have used inflammatory terms like 'barbaric' when referring to a procedure that actually does not come with enough risk to concern the mediccal community.

Vaccinations have clear medical benefits from birth. Circumcision only has medical benefits in very specific circumstances. We don't vaccinate for 'cultural and religious' reasons.

I think unless it is done for medical reasons it is an absolutely disgusting practice. Human bodies do not need parts of them cut off without consent for “cultural” or religious reasons.

Maybe you missed my post upthread where I quoted the PP who originally said that decisions for male circumcision should be based in science etc and I requested scientific/logical reasons for a ban.

I haven't received any beyond "it makes babies cry".🙄

Risk of infection, necrosis and physical damage/malformation at the site of the wound.

long term loss of sensation and protection of the area.

many men don’t discuss it because of the shame associated with not having a “powerful” penis.

it is interesting that you keep dodging the issue of consent and the fact is a baby cannot consent to this kind of life changing and potentially life risking surgery.

you’ll unfortunately never get accurate representation of the men who are scared for life, physically, mentally, or both, because there’s a vested interest in downplaying what can go wrong.

just like other forms of child abuse that are hushed up to save the embarrassment of the adults involved. At great pain to the child.

and health practitioners and insurance companies absolutely do not perform or fund unnecessary surgeries in any other circumstance. Especially not to healthy organs. Stop being wilfully obtuse.

None of that matters when god has told them to do this

people who are prepared to chop bits off their children for religious reasons will not listen to anyone telling them it’s wrong. However, the mental gymnastics to avoid simply admitting it’s just for religious reasons is interesting to see

people who are prepared to chop bits off their children for religious reasons will not listen to anyone telling them it’s wrong.

This is so true ( and it's not just chopping the bit off that some of them defend..).

Like all practices, it probably started from something practical. I think this was because it was hard to clean in the desert. Doesn't make it ok now. In fact even worse when you don't even know why it's a thing in the first place. I could never do this to my child 😪

The benefits to circumcision as far as I’ve read on the subject are completely irrelevant if you have a little bit of education and access to things like soap and condoms.

Babies don’t feel less pain than children. They have just the same nerve endings and capacity to feel pain, they just can’t talk about it.

I understand that the weight of cultural and religious symbolism is hard to ignore. I am not English. If circumcision was the tradition within my ethnic group, something that all the men had as a mark of that, then I think I would have found that very challenging emotionally if I’d had a son. I feel certain that I would not have had my baby cut, but I can imagine the conflict.
DH was circumcised as a baby, his mother says it was just the done thing at the time, for hygiene reasons. I don’t feel that it is worth risking the possible complications associated with cutting off part of a healthy baby, just to be “cleaner”. And that is aside from the fact that the boy being cut is not able to consent or object.

These debates go no where and just end up silly. I mean comparing anti-vaxers to people who are against circumcision. 😂

Also surely in medicine and science you identify a problem and try to solve it. It’s completely flipped around when it comes to circumcision. You have this practice and then you try to justify it with medicine/science. It’s not solving anything in first world countries. Unlike vaccines .

Using the logic here I could say earlobes don’t serve any known biological function. And their removal would stop cancer from ever forming there. So I’d like to hear the medical behind why I shouldn’t remove them from my baby.

You could say that, but you would have no research to back it up. There is plenty of research into male circumcision. It has proven health benefits for the individual and their community.

People here keep bring it back to a "god". Why? Male circumcision occurs across most religions and none.