Cultural circumcision in babies/young boys

[junipermarten]

1 of my DS's is circumcised due to a medical issue, he was 3 at the time and it was bloody horrific.

When he was going through it, a good friend gave me tips on after care and offered the number of a private doctor. She has sons who were circumcised shortly after birth for religious reasons.

I personally don't agree with circumcision unless medically required however I respect others choices for religious reasons.

It got me thinking about the high % of boys in the US who are circumcised for cultural reasons, just over 2/3rds. Why is it so prevalent there?

I was having a look at % of male pop per country and the highest were mainly Islamic, but also Samoa was almost 100% which surprised me but apparently its cultural as opposed to religious (I think).

As for a pp’s comment about children having sex under the age of 18 being culturally acceptable in this country. There’s currently a thread about a mum who doesn’t want to buy her 13 year old DS condoms. All you have to do is click on that thread, read the comments and see the posters point proven in real time.

Many people in different cultures would be horrified reading some of those responses and finding out that it’s okay to facilitate your child having sex. The same way a lot of you from different cultures don’t agree with circumcision.

Have a great weekend✌️

If this thread makes one person rethink their choice to get their child circumcised for non medical reasons or to consider the whole debate then it isn’t a waste of time. Change can be a slow thing.

You are treating this issue like it’s a mild disagreement about how to raise your child such as screen time or similar.
Its really really not and while I can agree to disagree with other parents on most things I will always judge anyone who does this VERY harshly and refer to it as abusive.
This is not a belief or an opinion it’s a fact

@Xrays this. Change takes time. So many things used to be 'traditional' - and we don't do them any more. Raping your wife used to be legal. Slavery used to be legal. Homosexuality used to be illegal. Barbaric practices like genital mutilation of all kinds need to be eradicated. It will take education and the support from those in the affected communities who are already wavering and doubting, but it will happen. Give it a few hundred years and people will look back in horror at the idea that people thought this was OK.

You can absolutely judge me and say that you believe it to be abusive. In the kindest way possible, I literally couldn’t care less

I think it will be made illegal in time

Thats fine as the opinion of someone who would do this is pretty worthless

Its not anywhere near common that adults in the UK think its ok for kids of 13 to be having sex, under 13s cant consent in anyway at all

But the situation is not comparable due to the age of the child and the implied perception of the child that they do consent

A baby has no knowledge, input, view or perception of consent at all. Quite why you would think those 2 situations can be compared suggests you have no concept of child protection issues.

But barbie you care enough to respond and tell everyone you don’t care? Constantly.

you can cherry pick any example you like from mumsnet threads, it doesn’t make them common or the cultural norm in the U.K. the internet being international and anonymous and not always honest and all that.

It’s peak straw man and whataboutary. I could say some places have child soldier and child brides based on what I’ve read and it’s not relevant to the discussion of genital mutilation at all. Casting shade on people for a different issue isn’t a comparative moral win.

I hope thing change for the better for the next generation, even if that choice is to let men choose when they are old enough too- ie after sexual maturity has been reached and they know what they’re losing. Again with a medical caveat for those that need it.

I really, really hope so.

Me too. Those poor little boys.

I didn't expect so many replies to this! I came onto MN just before I went to bed last night and saw a number of replies and started talking to DH about it. He said he had a friend at uni who was circumcised and they discussed the sensitivity issue with sex and masturbation, this is a concern in case my son faces any problems in future. I don't know enough about that side but will have a look into it.

When my son's issue became clear I was discussing it with my dad and he said he had it done for the same reason in his early 20s. He put it off for a long time until his doctor mentioned penile cancer and he booked the procedure right away.

A PP mentioned King Charles and why he would have been done. I didn't, and don't, know anything about this but yesterday I was reading an article about it (circumcision) in the UK. Apparently it was quite common before the war (I think 2nd) until the NHS was established, it was determined that it was not a necessary procedure so it wasn't covered. This resulted in a huge drop in the number of males being circumcised and was then reserved for the wealthy/nobility.

For the poster(s) saying this type of conversation is pointless as it'll go nowhere, I don't agree. Respectful, and it should be respectful, debate in a democratic society is a good thing. Being open to listening to others points of views and beliefs, is critical to reducing intolerance in society. I find religious and cultural practices fascinating. I'm an atheist and have a friend who is deeply religious (Christian), listening to her talk about her god is of interest to me because it is so far removed from my beliefs and day-to-day life. When I was younger I was so closed off to other people's views, and intolerant, now I embrace them. Ignorance breeds fear and hatred in my view.

No, it should not be respectful when we are talking about unnecessary removal of parts of a child’s body.
I am generally respectful of other opinions and of peoples religious practices but this is just wrong.
I have no ignorance about this but I may feel actual hatred for people who do it

It's a part of a religious ceremony, a practice dating back probably thousands of years
Religion is a protected characteristic.
The practice is not illegal
The whole thing is none of your business

So you are fine with a man putting his mouth on a boys penis because 'religion'.

(Im aware this it's not a common part of the ceremony but the fact it does happen sometimes and that people are willing to defend such a thing is crazy)

* And FYI, you're straying into Protocols turf there, with the reference

I have no idea who/what Protocol is.

This is where I am.

polite yes, not personally insulting yes. But I don’t need to be respectful of something so nasty

The protocols are something they’ve referred to twice now. They were an anti semitic document, and clearly the inference is that if we use the wrong language in opposing circumcision, and the language was also used in these protocols, therefore we are also anti semitic

im not engaging with that, it’s a cheap shot

I see their game. Thank you FloydPepper.

It's great to see so many people in agreement that Children's body parts shouldn't be removed unnecessary. Different topic but I'm guessing this will also be the majority view re removal of body parts (or giving medication) of under 18's to try to become a different gender, I'm not sure if kids that young can consent in any real way

I don’t respect the view that circumcision is ok, much the same as I don’t respect the view that being gay is wrong (and in some countries illegal), much as I don’t respect the view that women are subservient.

all of there are held by many people for “religious reasons” and challenging them, believing they are wrong, and openly saying so, does not require respecting them.

What Science are you talking about? Science that will have studied circumcised men to gather outcomes? Given that billions of men have it happen, how come I'm not seeing peer reviewed research that indicates widespread, long term damage and calling for a ban. Its very common in the US, one of the most litigious countries in the world yet not even they have seen widespread challenges to its legality.

And yes, circumcised men need to take the lead because they are the "victims". Anyone else is claiming victimhood on their behalf which is weird.

I understand that this is a Religious and cultural norm for you. However, if I slightly amend your post:

This thread has come at an apt time for me. My baby GIRL is due next week and will have HER (FEMALE circumcision) AT THE TRADITIONAL TIME. It's interesting to read people's views.

For us it's non-negotiable as observant XXX. I'm not massively looking forward to it, but it's an important ritual that will link HER to HER FEMALE RELATIVES going back FOREVER

This is why many posters here feel that religious tradition is the thin edge of an ugly wedge. Cost-effective prevention of possible future issues is the reason for high rates of circumcision in countries without free healthcare (as was the case in the UK before 1948) and this will likely enable parents to always find doctors prepared to assist.

I'm not expecting many posters here to change their opinion based on the posts of others but I do think that it's an important conversation to have.

Well said.

Correct

And interestingly, it took a while for the kid gloves to come off and for FGM to be challenged and viewed the way it should be, mutiliation and child abuse without someone piping up that 'its a cultural tradition' and that it shouldnt be questioned.

I heard of a religion/tribe in Africa or perhaps Amazon where they make yong boys get stung by bees or something like that and another that chops off the tips of a toe and finger.

I don't respect the part of any religion that gives an adult a free card to chop off or mutilate someone else's body as a vulnerable unaware child.

There were threads on this ages ago and even a proper medical environment can cause harm,i read account's of men whose member was damaged forever.

Thankfully here and in the us more modern progressive parent's are kicking away from it.