At what salary would you consider unpaid overtime acceptable?

[glowingstars]

I’ve recently noticed my colleagues (in office-based, annual salary type roles) are now being much stricter about leaving on time i.e. only working their contracted hours. And if they do end up working late in order to meet a particular deadline, they’re much more likely to ask for time off in lieu at a later point, and managers are agreeing to this.

Obviously this is no bad thing! But it’s a noticeable shift from 2-3 years ago when unpaid overtime was seen as an expected part of the role.

All of these people earn above average salaries, I would guess between 35k and 75k.

It got me thinking, is there a salary point at which you’d consider a) some or b) a lot of unpaid overtime is acceptable? So for example some unpaid overtime should be expected at 50k and a lot at 100k?

Obviously I know this won’t bear much resemblance to how it actually works in the real world (for example I know that teachers do a lot of unpaid overtime and don’t earn high salaries) but I just thought it would be interesting to hear thoughts!

Well, yes, but the net effect is the same- without the experience and exposure you will never get the chance to earn the bigger salary and bonus in future, so you are still being rewarded, just further down the line.

In previous jobs (senior PA roles) the contract often states your working hours but that you may be expected to work the hours needed to perform your duties which is fair enough. As long as it's give and take that's fine - ie, if I needed to leave half an hour earlier I wouldn't expect to be called into HR to explain myself.

I work in the public sector but not civil service.

It has always been in my contract that core hours are x but will work above unpaid as and when necessary. So have never been paid overtime. Most of my colleagues regularly work very long hours. Any time off in lieu is discretionary to the manager.

It’s interesting as previously the general flexibility ( eg willingness to accommodate part time working and wfh one day a week) plus interesting work compensated. Increasingly these are now offered ( and better!) in the private sector and it’s becoming very hard to recruit as the interesting work and notion of working for public good isn’t enough of a pull anymore.

I don’t agree, why you’re junior you do it for the experience and exposure, not a short term bonus. There will have been several years of my early career where I was working for below min wage. If you don’t do it you don’t succeed long term.

Not necessarily, I had my eldest the year after I graduated, so I've not had the luxury of working beyond my hours, I had to be there for pick up. I progressed at a rapid pace, quality not quantity as they say. I worked hard in my hours, volunteered for tasks, led projects, sought training etc; as a manager I notice employees "going above" by thinking critically, having ideas, taking actions without me needing to chase and micro manage, making the most of the time they are hired for, not just chucking down a bunch of extra hours.

Caveat: public sector, I do take the point it's not possible to talk too broadly about this topic.

If you're in a salaried role then you're working for someone else (likely making someone else money unless it's public sector).

If they wanted me to work extra hours, I'd expect to be paid for it. This is why I don't work in teaching etc. as I think the expectations are ridiculous.

The only situation in which I would do 'unpaid overtime' is if I was working for myself.

If your contract states ‘you need to work the hours required to perform your role’ then they aren’t ‘extra’ hours. Of course people have the choice to not accept a contract on those terms, however.

To get a £20k bonus you have to be on a pretty high salary already and if this is the case, it often doesn't work out at quite the amazing 'bonus' it initially appears.
Say you are salaried £100k/yr and the contract states 40hrs/wk, you earn £48/hr. If to get your extra £20k (which isn't guaranteed, remember) you need to be putting in an extra 10hrs/wk, then you will be earning £38.5/hr for your overtime. And you have to wait until the end of the year to get that money. Personally, when I've worked overtime in the past, I expect to be paid at least my usual hourly rate and receive the money in the following month's paycheck at the latest. The hypothetical person above would be much better off channeling their energies into doing some consultancy work.

Using the specific numbers in your post they would be, yes.

The last time I was a full time employee I was on 50k, and still getting overtime for every hour in excess of my contracted hours.

I now do contract work, and charge for every 15 minute block. I will do occasional favours for friends (reviewing presentations, or being a sounding board for ideas) as they do for me, and I happily mentor a few other women in my particular field for nothing. No-one gets my labour for nothing, though. It does a disservice to all employees to think that the company’s time is worth more than their own.

The last one I definitely get. If you genuinely feel like you are making a difference then that is something valuable in and of itself, so you are getting something out of it.

The others I find harder, but I do totally understand where you're coming from. Culture is set by the people who work there and loyalty to colleagues is more likely to be peer pressure than anything else, at least from my experience. Most of your colleagues probably feel similarly pressured by the fact that you do the extra hours and also feel like they can't refuse, no-one says anything and so it becomes a complete catch 22. It's a brave person who is the first to question it out loud though (or one who knows they are so valuable to the company that they can take that risk).

But they are unlikely to vary proportionally much from that. DH is in a field that does good bonuses during boom times (dodging redundancy is your 'bonus' in times like the current ones). On £70k, the most you would get in his industry is ~£12k. Nobody earning an average wage (currently around £27,750pa) is going to be getting a £20k bonus.

You would be managed out of a 100k job if you stuck rigidly to 40 hours a week though.

Reading with intrigue, but in general if I need to.do.extra ill.do extra

No way do I work for free
I start at my contracted hours and I’m out the door bang on time

( I realise i’m fortunate enough to have a job where that’s possible and not everyone has that)

Interesting that there is not a single post on here from anyone in an employer/managerial position who is responsible for setting expectations as to how many hours people should work.

All to busy working I guess!

Interesting that there is not a single post on here from anyone in an employer/managerial position who is responsible for setting expectations as to how many hours people should work.

How do you mean?

My contract is "hours required" with no entitlement to overtime/TOIL (although I sometimes take toil in the event. This is fine at my salary but I don't ask it of anyone else.

I mean that it’s full of people saying either “I don’t work extra hours for nothing “ or “I stuck it up as part of my job”.

All from the employee’s perspective.

Nobody saying “I expect my employees to work beyond contracted hours because….” Or “”I would never ask my employees to do this because…” or “I put the clause in the contract about the hours needed to do the job because…”

How can you “sometimes take TOIL” if not contractually entitled to it?

@TerraNostra Just that. I'm not entitled to TOIL contractually, but my own manager suggests I take it sometimes. But as I say, I never ask additional hours of anyone else, without payment or time off.

Ah, so you are sometimes GIVEN TOIL, you don’t just take it.

@TerraNostra oh I see I'm with you, well I sort of covered it when I said that "going above" to me as a manager isn't about about hours put in but how my staff work. Absolutely do not expect my staff to work more than their hours and am regularly reminding them to take their flexi.

With the caveat I'm public sector again!

But yes would be interested to hear from some private sector managers!

I was formerly in a senior management position in private sector professional services, but I did not set the organisation’s policy on working hours, which is as I have outlines in previous posts. I did (do) agree with it, but I would not have had the flexibility to vary it if I had not agreed.