At what salary would you consider unpaid overtime acceptable?

[glowingstars]

I’ve recently noticed my colleagues (in office-based, annual salary type roles) are now being much stricter about leaving on time i.e. only working their contracted hours. And if they do end up working late in order to meet a particular deadline, they’re much more likely to ask for time off in lieu at a later point, and managers are agreeing to this.

Obviously this is no bad thing! But it’s a noticeable shift from 2-3 years ago when unpaid overtime was seen as an expected part of the role.

All of these people earn above average salaries, I would guess between 35k and 75k.

It got me thinking, is there a salary point at which you’d consider a) some or b) a lot of unpaid overtime is acceptable? So for example some unpaid overtime should be expected at 50k and a lot at 100k?

Obviously I know this won’t bear much resemblance to how it actually works in the real world (for example I know that teachers do a lot of unpaid overtime and don’t earn high salaries) but I just thought it would be interesting to hear thoughts!

Can I ask what you do? I'm just curious as I've always found this attitude to be career limiting so wondering if you have found this

In theory, I would do this for a salary of over about 60k. In reality, I do it anyway because I really love my job and get carried away by aspects of it. But not all the time!

Try being a teacher. Much work is at home in evenings unpaid.😭

I do agree with this but what is the answer for jobs such as teaching, nursing etc where the job cannot be done in your hours?

They can be done in your hours. If you have sufficient staff to share the workload appropriately. With teaching (for example) the 10% PPA time was agreed nearly 2 decades ago. Workloads (particularly paperwork related things) have increased massively since then. Teachers could do it all within sensible hours (say 40 - 45 hrs per week) if more PPA time (less contact time) was allocated. But that would mean increasing school funding to allow higher numbers of staff, and the government are adamant they won’t do that.

I’m glad these professions are standing up though. We all need to make sure public sector workers aren’t being exploited.

Disclaimer: I’m a teacher who quit the state sector after adding up my hours in an “easy” week and finding it was 55. The following “hard” week was 62. I now work in private and tend to do around 45, depending on how busy the week is. I actually have the same 10% PPA, but the smaller class sizes make a massive difference to marking and other assorted paperwork.

Can I ask why? What did you gain from working all of those extra hours and why did you do it? You mention the pension, but do you think that your job (and pension) would have been in danger if you hadn't done loads of free overtime?

Genuinely interested.

Can I ask why?

A big part for me was the culture. It’s just expected in some workplaces that you work 60 hour weeks and that’s hard to kick against. In my previous school almost everyone came in really early and left really late, and those who didn’t were gossiped about - slackers who didn’t care enough about the kids. Oddly, there were a fair few who weren’t good teachers and didn’t get their work done, but they were in school long hours so nobody queried it. A toxic workplace. Much easier for me to find a different employer (even though I feel bad for contributing to the severe shortage of state school physics teachers).

@WaddleAway op was asking for opinions. I am a professional and I do. Others may not, but I was stating what I do/ would do.

It really depends and it's not just about salary. I'm thinking artistic type jobs where people are passionate about it, even if they're barely paid enough to live on.

In my job I do get a very good salary, and yes if asked I'll do the hours that are needed. I also can be called upon at any time in case of emergencies (this is very rare though). If I was asked to do 2h extra unpaid everyday obviously I wouldn't be happy about it but otherwise I'm happy to put it the work that's needed.

But, and it's equally important, my employer is really flexible about my needs as well. If I have a medical appointment and need to arrive a bit late or leave a bit early they're really nice about it. So I feel like it's fairly reasonable to give back, even if I earned less than I do.

I may feel differently if my job was super strict about work times.

I've haven't read all the replies but have skim-read a few and quite surprised at some of the responses, particularly around working unpaid overtime to progress one's career.
My experience has been the complete opposite and when I was younger and earning barely above minimum wage, I would do hours and hours of unpaid overtime, by choice, in the hope that someone would notice my hard work. Do you know what it got me? Sweet FA, that's what!
Then, a few years back I absolutely hated my job and decided to set some boundaries. It was hard at first but I feel that my boss started to value my time more and with that came pay rises. I then decided to change career path and was actually asked in the interview how I felt about unpaid overtime. I was honest and said that although I would be happy to help out in an emergency, it wasn't something I would be taking on regularly. I got offered that job and have stuck with my boundaries. I have now seen my career (and salary) progress at the fastest rate I've ever seen.

I’ve never been paid overtime and always worked 50 hour weeks. More so as a junior staff member on £26k. Earn £50k now and PT with young DC so more guarded about my “free time” but if there’s a deadline I’ll do OT. Wouldn’t dream of asking for time in lieu.

I used to work in finance where cheaper Indian colleagues would work 60+ hour weeks because they got paid overtime. In many cases this overtime payment was the same as their annual salary which was crazy. But it was only when UK colleagues stopped doing unpaid overtime (early Covid) that it became apparent how little value the bank’s Indian data centre provided. Basically every single piece of work they did needed to be fixed or altered or deleted by UK colleagues. The company improved productivity massively when they sold off their Indian operations and began to pay overtime in the UK.

Young grads don’t now need to do this. They tend to get paid on the basis of their ‘current’ skills refreshing organisational skill sets while the grads get to learn the soft skills needed in business. Unpaid overtime is now seen as a sign of failure or lack of ability rather than a badge of honour.

Thanks. I kind of get it more for teachers, nurses and the like where the consequences of not doing extra hours can be so obviously detrimental to the people you are there to help (and I hate that this very thing is taken advantage of). It’s more other jobs where those consequences are less clear (or sometimes non-existent) that I wonder about.

I don't think unpaid overtime is acceptable at any salary. The only time it's ok is if you're self employed.
I earn a high salary and have a very good overtime rate. Extra working hours are voluntary, not expected. That's how it should be. Anyone working for free to 'get ahead' is doing themselves and their colleagues a disservice and allowing their employer to take the piss. Remember you're selling your time and skills for their money, don't give them away for free.

I can't remember having a contract that didn't say "the hours required to fulfil the role". From working in the City in my 20s/mid 30s to the public sector from my early 40s. Except for a few halcyon years when I went back to work and started over. Because I had DC I always went the extra mile because I knew they could be ill at any time and my eye was on the greasy pole.

I have a career in professional services. Like a few others, my contracts have always said that I agree to work the hours required to perform the role. That is, of course, subjective, and as a more junior employee you are rarely in a position to decide independently that he work is “done”.

What a lot of people who have never had jobs like this fail to realise is that these jobs often entail targets in terms of “billable hours” and it is actually impossible to achieve those billable hours targets if you only work the core office hours, because the job also involves a lot of other activities which are not billable. Superimposed upon that is a culture of agreeing to client service levels which can only be maintained if you are available round the clock. The idea of clocking on at 9 and clocking off at 5 is laughable and would be the fastest route to getting fired. That’s not to say that you can’t finish at 5, or even earlier, on days that are quiet. But it balances out on busier days. What is more possible now than it used to be is stepping away from your desk eg in order to do school pickup, but if the work needs to be completed you will have to log back on after the kids are in bed. The payoff for this is two fold- a high salary (50k at trainee level and with fairly unlimited potential) and the satisfaction of doing an interesting job well. If you don’t care about either of these then you find a different career. Thinking of hours worked outside the 9 to 5 as “overtime” just doesn’t come into it.

Not anymore. It becomes insidious and takes over your life. DH is on the higher end of 'average' income and ended up working from home most nights after dinner. It became more & more expected & more dumped on him until he sometimes worked until 3am, then was back in the office at 8:30am. He didn't log the hours out of expectation because he earned more than some.

On holidays last year a client dropped a contract on him and he worked the ENTIRE week. One boss was annoyed DH was somewhere with limited mobile reception and accused him of 'giving up'. One said it wasn't good, must change... But nothing done. He discovered his colleague was paid more but doesn't work a minute over her hours (and half her contracted hours too).

DH finally started logging the hours for overtime payment & he was instructed to stop the extra hours IMMEDIATELY. Amazing!!!

One more comment to all those people who claim they never work a second over their contracted hours- have you never had a piece of work with a deadline that, for reasons you could not control (eg a colleague with an urgent request, a meeting overrunning, the job simply being more complicated than anticipated) you just don’t get finished by the end of the day? Do you just happily tell the person to whom you are delivering “sorry, I’m not finished, couldn’t be helped” and not face a single raised eyebrow when staying an hour later could have got it done? What if the deadline is for a client and can’t be moved (eg court hearing the next morning)?

In response to WheelofFish- workload, deadlines, culture, loyalty to colleagues and believing - possibly naively- that getting things done made and makes a difference. Of course this has varied from role to role and organisation to organisation but currently working for NHS and it feels very difficult not to put the hours in when all around are run ragged.

I work in civil service and unpaid overtime does not benefit your career, as there’s no direct line for promotion if you impress your managers. You have to apply for promotions just like any other candidate.

On some occasions I’ve seen people asked to fill their manager’s role, but this is only on a temporary basis - there is no substantive promotion or guaranteed longevity.

What a lot of people who have never had jobs like this fail to realise is that these jobs often entail targets in terms of “billable hours” and it is actually impossible to achieve those billable hours targets if you only work the core office hours, because the job also involves a lot of other activities which are not billable. Superimposed upon that is a culture of agreeing to client service levels which can only be maintained if you are available round the clock.

This is true for me. If I just did 8 hours a day I’d never meet my targets. I needed to do 7.4 billable hours a day minimum. If you go on holiday you need to bank more.

For me, other factors come into play. For example, I WFH but go into the office once a week. I know on the day that I'll get a lot less done as its nice to chat to everyone and have more ad hoc catch ups rather than planned Teams meetings. So rather than work 8-4 I'm happy to work 8-5 or later as I know I haven't actually 'worked' all day IYSWIM.

One more comment to all those people who claim they never work a second over their contracted hours- have you never had a piece of work with a deadline that, for reasons you could not control

Of course, but when you work flexi you note those extra hours and take them at a later (quieter) time, so it's not being done for free.

"Hours required to fulfil the role" shouldn't be allowed in contracts IMO. It should be a clear-cut list of expectations for both sides: we want ABC, for which we will pay you X. If the company know their employees usually work a 50hr week and it is expected, they shouldn't state hours are 9-5 plus a woolly clause that this might be more. It is dishonest. You wouldn't sign any other contract like this either - "Monthly mortgage payment to be what is required to cover our costs"? You'd tell them to get stuffed! You would rightly expect the mortgage company to set out exactly how much is paid in each circumstance.
The only time I'm OK with unpaid overtime is if it is a small amount and infrequent occurrence, plus there is equal flex back on the rare occasion you need it in return. It needs to be a fair exchange.

The only time I've ever been willing to do unpaid overtime is with a past employer who was very, very reasonable and flexible. I was paid a certain salary and I had certain tasks to fulfil. My boss couldn't have cared less when or where I did those tasks, as long as they were done. He didn't keep a record of how much holiday anyone took, as long as our jobs were getting done. He didn't micromanage, either. This meant we all worked considerably less than a standard 9-5 when you take into account all the long lunches, early clock-offs, late starts etc.

So on the infrequent but not unheard of occasion where an urgent issue came up over the weekend, I had no problem being called and logging on to help out if I was available.

It really was a good place to work, I'm sad I had to leave.

I wouldn't consider unpaid overtime in a workplace culture that didn't feel as flexible my old job (which in practice is very few workplaces).