Family ‘heirloom’ wwyd

[Holliegee]

Just wanting perspective.
FIL (ex) to whom I was very close.
He has since passed away but my ex didn’t tell me, he had quite a prolific career and extensive travelled past - part of his ‘history’ included a v expensive (at the time) watch.
His son (my ex) always wanted the watch but his Father would never give it to him - anyway over the years we had 3 sons - Grandad promised the watch to the eldest grandson, managed to get hold of a very similar watch for second grandson which he allowed his son to wear until grandson would be old enough to have it - 3rd grandson arrived -grandad has dementia and no thought about watches for him as his own father wasn’t even bothered with him - yet dementia ridden grandad adores him.

So, me and the children’s father split up.
He quite literally left me in lots of debt etc etc and emptied the house of anything valuable including my jewellery.

However, I discover that somehow he’d managed to take the watch (the original one from his father) and he left it hidden !!!
He has never said anything about it I presume he doesn’t know where it is - however going with Grandads wishes the watch now belongs to my adult eldest son to whom it was promised.

however

eldest son for whatever reason, perhaps having lived with a narcissistic father, perhaps he himself having narcissist tendencies has not behaved very well - lots has since happened and unfortunately he no longer chooses to speak to me or his younger brother (I don’t want to bad mouth him and I hope one day it will reconcile, however he is prone to financial abuse and emotional
abuse very similar to his father)

well here’s the crux …… I’ve got the bloody watch - what do I do with it??

wait until one day he returns (he is abroad) although he doesn’t know I have it.

or

give it to youngest son??

middle son is also estranged and in contact with his Dad who has told him he gets his watch when he dies (when the dad dies the son inherits the watch).

Possession doesn't equate to the legal ownership of it. How people have treated you and various personal gripes or fallings out have absolutely nothing to do with the legal owner of the watch - AKA the deceased's legal next of kin, or a named person given the watch in the will.

As it is of value it forms part of the deceased estate and the executor needs to be given it to hand it over to it's legal owner OP, anything else is not legal. If you sell it and the legitimate heirs to the estate take issue with that or choose to pursue that legally then they would have a right to recoup costs.

Surprised how many people think its ok to just sell a deceased persons high value property, OP is not next of kin, or executor. If someone dies without a will the same procedures still apply and the legal next of kin (following intestacy rules) inherits and becomes administrator for the estate regardless. It doesn't mean it is a free for all or that decisions can be made based on family arguments from those not even eligible to stake a claim.

In all honesty I'd sell it. It seems there was no will regarding the watch as you don't mention that. So it comes down to finders keepers then IMO. Your ex having removed everything he wanted from the house when you split (including some jewellery specific to you, so he stole from you personally) and leaving this watch behind and not having mentioned it since, I'd have to assume he didn't want it and had left it for you. And I wouldn't be asking him because he's abusive, so I wouldn't want that contact with him. It's in your house so it's yours, that's how I see it. If you bring it out and try to give it to any of your sons I foresee all hell will break loose. So I'd say nothing, sell it, claim to have never seen it if you're asked by sons or ex. That's the easiest way of keeping the peace. Replace your jewellery with the money and you're back to where you started.

The second watch bought by ex-FIL and given to your ex for safekeeping until your 2nd son is old enough to wear it. "Old enough" is subjective. So it's effectively your ex's watch until he decides to hand it over which he says will be on his death. You should stay out of this decision because it's nothing to do with you. If your 2nd son mentions it tell him it's between him and his dad.

The 3rd son is the one you're in contact with and there was never any talk of watches for him so don't you mention it either. It might be hurtful to know that the other two were promised watches but not him.

Firstly, the watch isn't yours so you shouldn't sell it or give it to any of your DC.
The watch should be included in the DFs estate. If there is a will and mentions the watch, that should be followed. If there is a will and doesn't mention the watch it should go to the beneficiary of the estate. Likewise if there's no will.

Surprised how many people think its ok to just sell a deceased persons high value property, OP is not next of kin, or executor. If someone dies without a will the same procedures still apply and the legal next of kin (following intestacy rules) inherits and becomes administrator for the estate regardless.

But the will is all sorted, no? So it belongs to the ex as part of the estate that's gone to the next of kin. And the ex left it in OP's home, for years, hasn't mentioned it since and he cleared out everything he wanted when he left. So how does this have anything to do with wills any more? Maybe if the watch was mentioned in the will and the ex stole it, but that doesn't seem the case. I can't see how it isn't OP's watch now.

As for those saying it'll destroy a reconciliation with her son. Not if the son doesn't know there was a watch that FIL wanted to come to him, doesn't know OP ever had it and sold it. And really, there is never going to be any reconciliation with this abusive son who is thick as thieves with his abusive father, so it's irrelevant, nothing more than a dream.

It’s not ‘crap’ though, is it? It was the wish of the OP’s FIL - you know, the actual owner of the watch? The one to whom the OP was very close, and who supported her when his son didn’t?

The OP wants to rebuild her relationship with her son. Why would she actively do something that would hurt him? You can trot out all this mawkish nonsense about how a ‘decent human being’ would be happy for her to sell it - so perhaps OP could wait until he’s in contact and allow him to make that choice?

The only crap on this thread is the advice from people saying “Sell it and go on holiday, u deserve it hun” and other such nonsense. You don’t think valuable watches have serial numbers or any other proof of ownership that goes with them? Has it occurred to you that the kind of man who can be abusive to his wife and steal her jewellery might, rather than shrugging his shoulders and saying “Oh well” when he realise he can’t trace this valuable watch, start thinking about who else could possibly have it? The OP would have to sell the watch with no proof of ownership and without anyone knowing. For heaven’s sake, get a grip.

What happens if the property is mentioned in the will but is lost, or the executors can't locate it?

OP probably is not the executor.

As for those saying it'll destroy a reconciliation with her son. Not if the son doesn't know there was a watch that FIL wanted to come to him, doesn't know OP ever had it and sold it.

So if you were trying to build bridges with your estranged child, you’d be happy to start by having that secret hanging over you?

I find the whole thing so bizarre. If this was a jumper the ex had left there when he moved out, never mentioned it and OP found it nobody would be saying "yes OP you must contact your abusive ex to find out what he wants done with it". No, everyone would say he should have took it years ago when he moved out so dispose of it as you see fit. Just because he left a valuable watch and not a jumper, who cares? It's no different. People are getting hung up on where the watch originated from, but surely that's irrelevant if it subsequently belonged to the ex. OP deserves some luck after all he's done to her. And finding something valuable in your house is lucky.

I'm saying it's impossible to build bridges with an abusive person, without accepting being abused, which is something nobody should ever accept. Therefore no bridges will ever be built. It's a dream that will never happen. Making your question irrelevant.

I'd have thought the OP letting the eldest son know she has the watch might be a positive way to re-open the channels of communication?

Exactly. Which is why the people suggesting selling it are being ridiculous.

i was told by my ex that if he found a will he would destroy it as he would be the sole beneficiary - this was whilst we were still ‘together’ as grandad died over 2 years ago and I’ve only just found out - clearly he did what he said he would do as grandad had said several times he was looking after me (his turn of phrase in his will) the watch hasn’t been mentioned by my ex as I assume he thinks he has lost it or sold it in one of his many drunken binges.

my eldest son isn’t a child, he chooses his behaviour and I am here for him whatever when and if he chooses to return, he knows my heart is always open to him and in fact many of his friends who keep in touch with me are dismayed by his behaviour - however, as I tell them that is between me and him and more so because of this he needs friends more than usual- sadly his behaviour is driving them away and his once close relationship with youngest son has now fractured due to his behaviours towards youngest son.

it is a mess a huge big dysfunctional mess

I’d be a bit more focused on why 2 of my 3 sons don’t speak to me.

You’re making some fairly massive assumptions there - and ignoring the key point that the OP wants to try to build bridges. If it doesn’t happen, it doesn’t happen - but why would she deliberately do something that would make that more difficult?

By far the most sensible post on the thread.

Say nothing, keep it in a safe place, wait and see.

@whattodo1975 I’m not sure I need to explain but I will - eldest son amd I haven’t fallen out as such, he just speaks to me when it suits him - he is abroad working and makes it clear he doesn’t want to be in touch with me - he is the same with his brothers for some time he and his younger brother were very close, youngest son even went to where he is for his gap year- then this year eldest son just cut contact and ignored calls texts and messages and did some very underhand stuff.
youngest ds messaged him after calls were ignored asking him to
please answer as he had bad news - this was that Grandad had died 18 months previous (we had only just found out) it took 2 weeks and a friend to intervene and he called ds who broke the news to him.
since then he has not responded to calls or texts (he is ok we are in contact with people he knows he is just choosing to ignore us)
similarly with his middle brother for some time they were reconciled and went on holiday together then eldest son just cast him out.

He isn’t an unpleasant man, he is exceptionally bright hence why he is overseas,he is not depressed or struggling he has always been like this - able to cast people out.

middle son chose to be on his dads ‘side’ if we look at it from that angle - he had behaved very badly towards me for some time as his father encouraged it.
He has since spoken to me, asked many questions about my life etc and then blocked me and so I have to accept it is what it is.

I am me, I have not changed I will
slways be their mum my heart is always open and I have always supported them and this I think is just what happens when children from a young age live in dysfunction.

It’s not a Rolex or an omega - ds 1 already has those purchased by himself - the watch that was grandads is more sentimental than of massive value although I estimate it to be perhaps £3000 tops value.

@2bazookas Thankyou that’s my intention I think x

Just to say op, I'm so sorry for everything you've been through. Reading the backstory bought tears to my eyes.
Please ignore the nastier replies here.
For what it's worth, I think I would keep the watch safe but still 'hidden' and just bide my time. See what becomes of your relationship with oldest ds.
It is worth remembering though that fils wish was that he receives the watch.
Could you honestly go against his wishes and feel comfortable with yourself?
No judgement here in whatever you decide but I really do think that you need to carefully weigh up your options and consider the consequences of your decision...as in how comfortable you would feel within yourself.
Wishing you well op x

Thankyou @Vegetablesupreme x

Woah why is everyone a viper here? You came on looking for advice and got it. You are still ignoring it by keeping it from your exH as it belongs to him if no will has been located. If GF really wanted your DS to have it he'd have left a will and as given your 'running away' fund, would have lodged it with a solicitor I assume. Give the watch to your exH and your concious is clear. To do anything else makes you part of the problem surely?

@Shelefttheweb The problem with bringing the jewellery into it is that it wasn't reported at the time, and exH has only to say 'not me guv!' There's no proof he stole it. It's gone. She has the watch. Keep it, sell it and enjoy the proceeds, as you say. Morally she deserves this.

If she wishes, she could sell and give each son £1K each. Or into 4 and keep a quarter.

I don't subscribe to this 'eldest son' takes the lot. It's unfair and is outdated. I'd say do what is fair I'm sure the GF would say this too.

It’s nothing to do with fairness - it’s what the OP’s FIL wanted. Why are you sure he would say it was ‘unfair and outdated’ when this is exactly what he requested? As outlined in the very first paragraph of the opening post?

But we also understand (from the same sources) that FIL wanted her looked after. The reality is without a will it is irrelevant what FIL might have wanted.