Are things in the UK as bad as it sounds in the news?

[Lolobella]

I left the UK in 2017 and now live in Europe. I obviously still follow the UK news closely and visit, although I have no family left there.

In the last few months the UK news have become increasingly grim and concerning. I can't tell if it is just the news painting the country in a worse light than necessary, or if things are genuinely as bad as the news make it sound.

Obviously this is a tough historical moment for many countries, but the doom and gloom in UK news is just on another level and makes if sound like the country is in free fall. Poverty, strikes, crazy energy prices, failing NHS and public services.. Is it really so bad?!

I also had to attend A&E during the first lockdown. Usual wait on a good day is 6-8 hours, on a bad day, around 14. During lockdown I was in and out with a minor bone break in less than an hour. All the medical staff I spoke to commented on the lack of patients and patients being too scared to go to A&E, either because they were terrified of catching covid, or they believed the NHS was under so much pressure they should suffer at home.

Covid is only part of the shit show.

I fear this post will have many shouting about privilege or stealth boasting or whatever but...

I truly believe a lot of this is media created. We are all told we are / are going to be poor, cold and miserable. So we are. The news is so bloody depressing and we are constantly told it'll get worse.

No doubt thousands are suffering, as thousands have always suffered. This is for a myriad of reasons, ranging from illness and disability to poverty (both working poor and those caught in a cycle of not working) and of course higher energy bills and food prices have exacerbated this, but the vast majority are ok, just tightening belts.

Government fatigue isn't helping. We need an election so Labour can bugger it all up again, before the Tories do the same once more, and on and on.

The UK is not a failing wasteland of misery. The more we perpetuate this myth, the more it becomes true.

It is the poorest country in western Europe! It now has a lower gdp per capita than Israel (a country at war). I mean, the fact that the UK is doing so badly does not mean that there aren't rich or middle class people. Even in developing countries, there is usually a good sized middle class who are not mega wealthy, but own their homes, spend money to obtain good education for their children, go abroad for medical treatment or go private, have decent pensions and overseas holidays. We also have industries like the financial services industry where my DH's first job out of university made him a higher rate taxpayer (however, they are not the majority and most people in the whole country do not work in financial services). We also have a large contingent who are relatively insulated from the chaos because they bought their homes earlier and have had more time to accumulate savings. It makes such a difference; my MIL earns below minimum wage but she is 'ok' because her mortgage is very tiny and even if groceries triple in price, she still can afford it as her children have mostly left home and her fixed expenses are very low. Her London home would rent for £3000 on the private market, so if she was 35 years younger, she would really struggle.

The people really suffering now are mostly the people who don't have the set of circumstances as above. yet they are a pretty large contingent. However it does not mean that the poverty isn't a serious problem that will seriously hold people back. Or that it isn't dysfunctional. How can it be that you need to be in the professions/working in financial services/be a high performer/bought a home 30 years ago in order to being able to pay your mortgage and have the heating on?

This is from the FT, which isn't a tabloid.

www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68945

'Its a similar story in the middle. In 2007, the average UK household was 8 per cent worse off than its peers in north-western Europe, but the deficit has since ballooned to a record 20 per cent. On present trends, the average Slovenian household will be better off than its British counterpart by 2024, and the average Polish family will move ahead before the end of the decade. A country in desperate need of migrant labour may soon have to ask new arrivals to take a pay cut.
It’s a similar story in the middle. In 2007, the average UK household was 8 per cent worse off than its peers in north-western Europe, but the deficit has since ballooned to a record 20 per cent. On present trends, the average Slovenian household will be better off than its British counterpart by 2024, and the average Polish family will move ahead before the end of the decade. A country in desperate need of migrant labour may soon have to ask new arrivals to take a pay cut.'

Our government damages public services by underfunding, then its supporters say it's all the fault of pesky foreigners.

Who are the pesky foreigners that control government spending?

(Click it to expand)

yes and the majority of 'pesky foreigners' are young and healthy. People don't tend to immigrate if they have lots of health problems.

The majority of the people in hospital beds are elderly/have lots of chronic illnesses. they are local. We have an ageing population like most of the western world, but we have not prepared adequately for it, this is the result.

On present trends, the average Slovenian household will be better off than its British counterpart by 2024, and the average Polish family will move ahead before the end of the decade. A country in desperate need of migrant labour may soon have to ask new arrivals to take a pay cut.

Based on which metrics?

It is the poorest country in western Europe! It now has a lower gdp per capita than Israel (a country at war)

Is there a source for this? I have googled and we're still well ahead of Spain, Italy and Israel (and others) on the stats I could find.

data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?most_recent_value_desc=true

Monaco 2020 173,688.2
Liechtenstein 2019 169,049.2
Luxembourg 2021 135,682.8
Bermuda 2021 110,869.5
Ireland 2021 99,152.1
Switzerland 2021 93,457.4
Norway 2021 89,202.8
Isle of Man 2019 86,481.6
Cayman Islands 2020 85,346.8
Channel Islands 2007 74,463.0
Singapore 2021 72,794.0
United States 2021 69,287.5
Iceland 2021 68,383.8
Denmark 2021 67,803.0
Faroe Islands 2020 66,320.7
Qatar 2021 61,276.0
Sweden 2021 60,239.0
Australia 2021 59,934.1
Netherlands 2021 58,061.0
Greenland 2020 54,570.4
Finland 2021 53,982.6
Austria 2021 53,267.9
Canada 2021 52,051.4
Belgium 2021 51,767.8
Israel 2021 51,430.1
Germany 2021 50,801.8
Hong Kong SAR, China 2021 49,660.6
New Zealand 2021 48,801.7
United Kingdom 2021 47,334.4
San Marino 2020 45,515.8
Macao SAR, China 2021 45,421.6
France 2021 43,518.5
Andorra 2021 43,047.7
Virgin Islands (U.S.) 2020 39,552.2
Japan 2021 39,285.2
United Arab Emirates 2020 36,284.6
Italy 2021 35,551.3
Korea, Rep. 2021 34,757.7
New Caledonia 2020 34,694.6
Guam 2020 34,624.3
Malta 2021 33,257.4
Brunei Darussalam 2021 31,722.7
Puerto Rico 2020 31,429.9
Cyprus 2021 30,798.5
Spain 2021 30,115.7

Yes we are above Spain, but thats not terribly impressive since Spain was under Franco until 1975! Also southern europe is on the whole poorer than western europe. We are slightly above france but just look at how many countries are above us. Even if you take out the countries/tax havens, its not very encouraging. Also London is one of the world's financial centres so that already boosts our gdp per capita considerably... if you take that away....

average wealth, average income, average gdp per capita and also projections.

UK real wages are falling relative to other countries.

www.theguardian.com/business/2022/jul/13/average-uk-household-8800-a-year-worse-off-than-those-in-france-or-germany

While the top 10% of households in Britain were richer than those in many other European countries, middle-income British households were 9% poorer than their counterparts in France, while the poorest fifth of households in Britain were more than 20% poorer than their French and German equivalents.

Also from the times, www.thetimes.co.uk/article/households-getting-poorer-as-britain-falls-behind-rivals-on-living-standards-3cg32jlln

Low growth and inequality have left British households £8,800 worse off than their counterparts in other wealthy countries, research has found.
Living standards in the UK lag those in Australia, Canada, France, Germany and the Netherlands, with low and middle-income households affected most severely, according to analysis by the Resolution Foundation think tank and the London School of Economics as part of the Economy 2030 Inquiry series of reports on the future of the economy. The average UK household is said to be 21 per cent poorer than in these countries.
Much of Britain’s failure to keep up with its European peers is down to its relatively slow productivity growth. A rise in productivity across the economy means that workers can generate greater output per hour of labour, which typically leads to a rise in wages and, in theory, economic growth.

The crisis also hit wages, which were growing by an average of 33 per cent each decade until 2007. Since then, growth in real pay — income adjusted for inflation — has declined, amounting to a fall in living standards.
However, the pain is not shared. The top 10 per cent of households in the UK are richer than those in many other European countries. Those further down the earnings scale have borne the brunt of slow economic growth and weak gains in productivity.
Middle-income households in the UK are 9 per cent poorer than their French counterparts, and the poorest fifth of are more than 20 per cent poorer than in France and Germany.
Researchers at the Resolution Foundation said that Britain was not on track to turn around its fortunes because policymakers were not “serious” about doing so, with no economic strategy that makes the most of the country’s specialism in delivering services, nor plans to “level up” the regions outside London on the scale that is required.

How does this equate to poorest in Western Europe?

There are WE countries below us

It is the poorest country in western Europe!

So based on that list, not the poorest country in Western Europe and if we're only slightly above France then by the same token we're only slightly below Germany and Belgium so there's a cluster of countries in a similar position which is interesting.

France, i give you that.

Regions of Europe based on CIA World Factbook:

Northern Europe

Western Europe

Central Europe

Southwest Europe

Southern Europe

Southeast Europe

Eastern Europe
The CIA classifies seven countries as belonging to "Western Europe":[11]
Belgium
France
Ireland
Luxembourg
Monaco
Netherlands
United Kingdom

www.theatlantic.com/newsletters/archive/2022/10/uk-economy-disaster-degrowth-brexit/671847/

Basically, we are poorer than

1. Germany, USA, Benelux, Canada, Australia, Israel, Norway, Denmark, Sweden, Austria, Ireland, Finland????

And slightly above France though there is research that the average French hosuehold is £8800 better off than the average British household.

It is not a good look for a first world country. And the thing is UK is actually smaller than Germany or France and gdp per capita tends to favour smaller countries (hence why the top 10 is dominated mainly by small countries).

While the top 10% of households in Britain were richer than those in many other European countries, middle-income British households were 9% poorer than their counterparts in France, while the poorest fifth of households in Britain were more than 20% poorer than their French and German equivalents.

OK, this is much more believable. I know for a fact that in my profession, we earn around 40% more in the UK than our counterparts in Germany and France - top 10% of households.

True. The poorest line sounded bad but it’s not the case.

Oth you see a fair few posts re we’re the fifth largest economy (usually with a line that we can’t do x), so 5th or 6th depending isn’t too bad

Yes my DH and are in the top 10% of incomes ( and we are barely average for London). I am saying UK as a whole. London/SE is of course much richer than many places in Germany/France. But we are comparing countries.

But thats what I was also saying in my original post- there is a sizeable middle class and they are the people doing a lot of the spending and they will continue to be able to own homes/send their kids to university and privately educate/send to good state schools in good areas/enjoy a comparable standard of living to their counterparts in other countries. Even if it means having to go to Eastern Europe/other countries for healthcare/dental care as the NHS is blocked up and the private hospitals here don't necessarily have the capacity (I know people in Indonesia who travel to Singapore for healthcare). But this does not mean that the country overall is doing well or that we are not going downhill. It just means that some people in this country have managed to maintain their wealth and there are some industries in this country that serve an international client base (and are more insulated as a result).

China is the second largest economy but it is a developing country and imho very poor.

The UK in my view is a poor country with some very rich people and a sizeable middle class (10%). Does not mean its a bad place to live and thankfully we are middle class. But what about the 90%?

Those World Bank don't seem to match these - what am I missing?

globalpeoservices.com/top-15-countries-by-gdp-in-2022/

I do share some of your concerns. The ONS had information re more higher proportion paid in benefits than paying taxes. It feels a tipping point.

But that list below seems to share a couple of things - tax haven, attractive tax levels or abundance of natural resources

We’re going to have to build on what we do well and use that to invest and go from there. We need to build on being attractive and not fall into trap of ever higher taxes and benefits as it’ll be a very bad spiral.

I think we can do it, we have some good foundations but sometimes I do thing hmm let’s see

Oh right I’m not sure now.. this looks aligned to 5th largest economy

@socialmedia23
We're not in London BTW - think it's important to clarify that but I do agree with what you're saying.

This is GDP- total monetary or market value of all the finished goods and services produced within a country's borders. DP per capita is the size of the gross domestic product divided by the population GDP per capita is much more accurate as of course larger countries would have larger GDPs!

GDP is useful because it tells you which are the largest markets i.e. america, china, india. But a small country like Luxembourg or singapore with a tiny population would have much lower gdp but still be extremely wealthy for its size. Singapore for example has 5 million people (less than the population of London which is 9 million).

@socialmedia23 Thank you - I've clicked through and found it. Apologies.

GDP per Capita is a more accurate picture of real world wealth but doesn't take into account living costs.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_in_Europe_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

Never really understood the 5th richest etc as that includes property?