Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Older women and how they remember the menopause

156 replies

TroubledRabbit · 30/11/2022 13:35

Just been chatting to my lovely, trained as a nurse, mil whose daughter is struggling with cancer treatment. Apparently she's struggling to sleep and I said, 'it must be hard with separating side effects from the menopause'

Quick as a flash, MIL declared she, herself, had no symptoms and sailed through so it was unlikely to be that.

I've been with DH a long time, Mil was 55 when I met her and a bit broken, not much fun, understandably weighed down by the previous ten years of high need elderly parents, teens and working.

DH remembers her debilitating migraines. her lack of humour in those days.
Since retirement she's fitter, more relaxed and good company.

Any thoughts?
Is this just simply as we age we don't want to think of our chubby toddlers as middle aged, starting to sag adults?
Has mil got such a firm grasp of the Grip that carried her through that tough decade that she cant, even now, put it down?
My own menopause, not discussed with mil, has been such a nightmare that I'm intrigued that the quick answer was 'sailed through'.

OP posts:
Oblomov22 · 30/11/2022 18:52

I know loads of women old and now who have sailed through, and suffered. You must know OP that both happened to older women and women now?

flashbac · 30/11/2022 18:53

Mojoj · 30/11/2022 18:19

Yeah, am sick to death about every ailment past mid forties being blamed on the menopause. Am also fed up with the shite being peddled on TikTok and Insta that past forty, you should just expect everything to fall apart.

Hear hear!

MakingNBaking · 30/11/2022 18:58

If you believe my three older sisters, it's a case of all this fuss over nothing, a couple of sweaty nights and it's all over, don't be such a drama queen.
My recollection of their menopause is the one that didn't speak to anyone for a year, the one who was either snarling at you or falling asleep in your car, and the one who nearly passed out in my conservatory one day whilst suffering a hot flush.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Snnowflake · 30/11/2022 19:10

My recollection of their menopause is the one that didn't speak to anyone for a year, the one who was either snarling at you or falling asleep in your car, and the one who nearly passed out in my conservatory one day whilst suffering a hot flush.

Yes, no one balks at a young woman being given hormone treatment for eg having her uterus removed and going through an early menopause. It demonstrates that a fall in hormone levels is a serious problem that needs treatment but older women asking for HRT can be seen as weaklings who need to get a grip and just get on with it.

MissyB1 · 30/11/2022 19:15

Actually to come right back to the very good point OP commented on to her Mil, I had enormous trouble distinguishing between the effects of breast cancer drugs and menopause. Not to speak of the PTSD from going through cancer treatment. I couldn’t work out what the hell was going on or what I or the Drs could do about it - which was nothing as it turned out sigh…

TroubledRabbit · 30/11/2022 19:36

My heart goes out to you @MissyB1 and everyone else that's had to wade through the implications and side effects of their body changing at speed, out of control.

OP posts:
VashtaNarada · 30/11/2022 19:45

Omg my mother did this tonight. First of all said she had her menopause aged 50, and when I questioned this said oh well I hardly had any symptoms, I dont remember. Well, I do, she had noisy hot flushes for approx 10 years for a start! I have learned that she rewrites history.

It irritates me but I guess I do the same when for example looking back on having toddlers and a baby etc, wistfully, when in reality it nearly broke me!

Maybe it will he a blessing!

Nepoyeah · 30/11/2022 19:46

I'm so sorry that happened, @Afterfire but yes I think this is is a thing, I think I had symptoms from 39, I have various autoimmune issues (hence painful joints always, just much exacerbated in early forties). When a cross GP questioned why I was already on HRT at 44, I stated that all my family members had started peri very early and suffered badly, and that it was possible I might have gone even earlier due to auto immune, and she just snapped 'Well, not EVERYONE, does, you know,' and I had to say very politely, 'that's probably true, but probably I did. Plus I've been on HRT for a year now and it has solved many, many health problems' (and social problems).

I could never, ever take the pill successfully, had terrible clinical depressive episodes with depo provera, yasmin, microgynon and dianette back in the day, so it's not even like i am just like 'hormones, yay'. But HRT has been revolutionary for me, in my situation.

Speedweed · 30/11/2022 19:48

Totally agree @Mojoj - I like Dr Jen Gunter's view that menopause is a normal part of life, and if you wouldn't view a 6 year old girl as 'hormone deficient', then neither is a 60 year old woman. She says that some women will have symptoms disruptive enough to need treatment, of which hrt is but one option - she doesn't agree with the Davina-style blanket 'all women need hrt forever'.

I find her view very refreshing.

SlouchingTowardsBethlehemAgain · 30/11/2022 19:49

I was exhausted, anxious and could not sleep well for a couple of years. From talking to my friends, I had it easy.

RampantIvy · 30/11/2022 19:56

Not what you want to hear, but apart from regular migraines I got through the menopause pretty much unscathed. I didn’t get the anxiety, brain fog, mood changes or debilitating hot flushes that I hear about. I did get flushes, but they didn’t last long and they weren’t awful.
I never had PMT either.

I’m 64 BTW and had my last period at 50.

As a fiftyish woman the narrative that if I am bad tempered or get headaches, then that must be due to menopause, is rather insulting and sexist too.

I agree with you @hugoagogo. I hate it when women (and men) blames hormones for everything. The stereotype of women being a constant hormonal mess is so irritating.

unfortunately, there is a recent trend to medicalise the whole thing & assume it must be absolutely terrible for everyone. Sometimes, the "keep calm & carry on" approach is the right one.

Yeah, am sick to death about every ailment past mid forties being blamed on the menopause. Am also fed up with the shite being peddled on TikTok and Insta that past forty, you should just expect everything to fall apart.

I agree with these ^^

Nepoyeah · 30/11/2022 20:02

Jen Gunter is amazing. Here's her discussing menopause. It sounds like she takes oestrogen herself, and thinks we should talk to our medical providers MORE about the profound changes happening to us.

NYT, May 25, 2021

'But many women are unaware of the basic biology of menopause and don’t know what to expect when they are no longer expecting a regular period. They may worry that a hot-flush inferno will leave them dripping with sweat at work, or dread addressing the issue of vaginal dryness with their sexual partner. What woman wants to admit that she now plays for a team that society has deemed irrelevant? Throw in the fact that much of menopause happens “down there,” and the resulting information void is unsurprising.

The ramifications of both this lack of information and the taboos around menopause are significant. Women may not discuss bothersome symptoms with a medical provider, erroneously assuming there are no safe, effective therapies. As a physician and author who writes and speaks frequently about women’s health, I’ve heard from many women that they felt their doctors could not or would not answer their questions about changes in their bodies. They have described being dismissed with blank stares or platitudes such as “It isn’t that bad” or “That’s just part of being a woman,” or told to come back when they are “really in menopause.” Why does no one ever say that erectile dysfunction isn’t that bad, or that it’s just part of being a man?

So profound is the knowledge gap that many women aren’t sure of the markers of menopause. Are they in it or done with it? This confusion can be traced back to the misdirected emphasis on the last menstrual period as well as the confusing terminology: The menopause transition, the time leading up to the final menstrual period, is often called premenopause; perimenopause describes the menopause transition plus the first year without a period. But there is no last call announcing the final menstrual period, so a woman is considered to be postmenopausal (or sometimes just “in menopause”) once a year has passed without a period. Since that last period doesn’t typically affect how we manage most of the menopause experience, it’s common to describe the entire process as menopause.

The reliance on missed periods for a diagnosis can be frustrating, so it’s no surprise that an assortment of companies now sell tests that promise to tell a woman where she is in her menopausal transition. But the truth is that no single blood, saliva or urine test can accurately determine whether or not a woman is close to her final menstrual period. The hormonal chaos of the menopause transition is so great that one month hormone levels could suggest menopause, and two months later they could be normal. These tests are largely meaningless because they provide a snapshot of hormones that change constantly, and therapy for troubling symptoms doesn’t depend on hormone levels. These tests merely take advantage of the gaps in medicine for profit.

There are proven, effective treatments for many symptoms of menopause. Perhaps the most well known is menopausal hormone therapy, or M.H.T., which is often called hormone replacement therapy (a phrase that should be discouraged, as it suggests an abnormality where none exists). M.H.T. is typically a form of estrogen, and women with a uterus will also need a progesterone or a progesterone-like hormone to protect against an increased risk of cancer. Despite data that tells us that M.H.T. is low risk for most women who start before the age of 60, there is often a reluctance among medical providers to prescribe it and among women to take it.

The past two decades have seen a wealth of exciting new menopause research. Scientists have learned that some antidepressants and other treatments can reduce hot flushes. Hormonal treatments can help genitourinary symptoms (vaginal dryness and pain during sex) of menopause. Research has shown that brain fog is real — and temporary. We are in an era of a medical menopause renaissance, and yet many women are not benefiting from it.

As a result, women seeking information may turn to sources that appear to be knowledgeable, but that also, coincidentally, often offer products — many untested and even harmful — to treat the symptoms of menopause. Hence the growing market for over-the-counter supplements that are marketed to menopausal women and promise relief for symptoms like hot flashes and sleep difficulties, many with very little supporting data. In the United States, supplements are not tested for safety, and some “menopause supplements” contain ingredients that are either not proven to help with symptoms or may cause actual harm.

There is also a growing market for compounded, so-called bioidentical hormones. These products aren’t subject to adequate regulatory oversight, and a recent report from the National Academies of Sciences, Engineering and Medicine concluded that there is limited information about the safety and effectiveness of these products. Personally, I only trust my health to an estrogen that’s approved by the Food and Drug Administration. I want to know exactly what my body is absorbing, and I simply can’t have that precision and safety with a compounded product. That many women feel more comfortable using products that are not recommended by menopause experts says as much about the communication gaps in medicine as it does about those who prey upon women. These gaps are especially troubling given that the science is not lacking.

Western medicine has already found ways to educate patients about significant hormonal changes. After all, pediatricians routinely discuss puberty with their patients at annual checkups and tailor their conversations to age and symptoms. Doctors should have similar discussions with women in their late 30s, so that their patients are prepared. Menstrual irregularities, hot flushes, depression and brain fog can start several years before the final menstrual period, which typically arrives in a woman’s early 50s. These conversations can also spur women to take steps to protect their health in menopause by increasing exercise and ensuring adequate calcium intake, for example.

For too long, women have had to fight to learn the facts about menopause, to take up arms for their health and their sanity. Speaking up about the concerns of a female body as it ages should be considered normal, not brave.

Movinghouseatlast · 30/11/2022 20:20

RampantIvy · 30/11/2022 19:56

Not what you want to hear, but apart from regular migraines I got through the menopause pretty much unscathed. I didn’t get the anxiety, brain fog, mood changes or debilitating hot flushes that I hear about. I did get flushes, but they didn’t last long and they weren’t awful.
I never had PMT either.

I’m 64 BTW and had my last period at 50.

As a fiftyish woman the narrative that if I am bad tempered or get headaches, then that must be due to menopause, is rather insulting and sexist too.

I agree with you @hugoagogo. I hate it when women (and men) blames hormones for everything. The stereotype of women being a constant hormonal mess is so irritating.

unfortunately, there is a recent trend to medicalise the whole thing & assume it must be absolutely terrible for everyone. Sometimes, the "keep calm & carry on" approach is the right one.

Yeah, am sick to death about every ailment past mid forties being blamed on the menopause. Am also fed up with the shite being peddled on TikTok and Insta that past forty, you should just expect everything to fall apart.

I agree with these ^^

What a shame even other women are so dismissive of those who suffer terribly with menopause.

I really would encourage you to educate yourself about what depleted oestrogen does to a woman's body. Particularly if you are in a position to manage women in their late 40's and 50's.

It seems that some women think that women suffering from anxiety, depression, a feeling of futility, panic attacks, debilitating hot flushes, uncontrollable anger, vaginal atrophy, lack of libido, inability to orgasm should just put up with it and keep calm. How incredibly upsetting and depressing.

beastlyslumber · 30/11/2022 20:20

I find messages like the one from a pp that I'll get dementia if I don't get on HRT to be really unhelpful.

RampantIvy · 30/11/2022 20:35

What a shame even other women are so dismissive of those who suffer terribly with menopause.

I really would encourage you to educate yourself about what depleted oestrogen does to a woman's body. Particularly if you are in a position to manage women in their late 40's and 50's.

It seems that some women think that women suffering from anxiety, depression, a feeling of futility, panic attacks, debilitating hot flushes, uncontrollable anger, vaginal atrophy, lack of libido, inability to orgasm should just put up with it and keep calm. How incredibly upsetting and depressing.

I don't think this at all, and neither do the posters I posted comments on.

The last part of my message got chopped off. This is what should have also been on my post:

"That's not to say that many women get through the menopause so easily"

But I still feel that blaming every woman's behaviour on their hormones is the new "placing the blame of badly bahaved children on autism"

I also think you need to be less defensive and accept that not all women suffer from problems resulting from their hormones.

We aren't all the same.

Piffle11 · 30/11/2022 20:39

My DSis and I are both early 50s and peri menopausal. We often compare symptoms... our DM claims she had no issues and sailed through it. We remember her dreadful hot flushes, her mood swings, weight gain, heavy irregular periods, other issues and eventual hysterectomy at 53. We've no idea whose life she's thinking of!

CharlotteByrde · 30/11/2022 20:41

Anger and depression and a feeling of futility might be hormone related but could just as easily be justifiable rage at the fact everyone around us is either a lazy sod, pathetically needy or totally irritating. In our 50s we're often trying to juggle slightly-rubbish-husbands, work, housework, health issues, the needs of elderly parents and difficult teenagers (maybe Mum's 'grumpy' all through her kids' teenage years because they're being little shits??) Life then was an overwhelming burden for many of the women I know. Our 60s are much better.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/11/2022 21:25

vaginal atrophy has been the worst part of the menopause for me. the euphemism “vaginal dryness” doesn’t even begin to cover what happens as the skin thins, the labia shrinks, the clitoris starts to disappear and any attempt at penetration is like broken glass. It’s also strongly linked to UTIs. Fortunately after 2 horrendous years I have a stable regime of topical oestrogen that keeps it at bay but it virtually destroyed mine & DH sex life.

my mum had the hot flushes and itchy hands but she didn’t have VA so although we discussed the menopause a lot in my 40s, her experience was very different. My sisters are now both peri menopausal and have very different symptoms ti me - they’re both forgetting words and have chronic insomnia

Afterfire · 30/11/2022 22:07

Theeyeballsinthesky · 30/11/2022 21:25

vaginal atrophy has been the worst part of the menopause for me. the euphemism “vaginal dryness” doesn’t even begin to cover what happens as the skin thins, the labia shrinks, the clitoris starts to disappear and any attempt at penetration is like broken glass. It’s also strongly linked to UTIs. Fortunately after 2 horrendous years I have a stable regime of topical oestrogen that keeps it at bay but it virtually destroyed mine & DH sex life.

my mum had the hot flushes and itchy hands but she didn’t have VA so although we discussed the menopause a lot in my 40s, her experience was very different. My sisters are now both peri menopausal and have very different symptoms ti me - they’re both forgetting words and have chronic insomnia

I agree re the vaginal atrophy and I’m so glad women are talking about this aspect more. I had no idea that oestrogen creams like Ovestin and Vagifem existed before I was lucky enough to see a nurse who recommended them to me. Lots of women aren’t so lucky and so go through this not knowing there are treatments. I’m sure my Mum and Gran and many other older women have no knowledge of this aspect at all.

MadelineUsher · 30/11/2022 22:23

I remember my mother having a difficult menopause back in the 1950s. She talked about it, other people talked about it, women understood the symptoms all too well. My mother worked full time as did many of my friends' mothers. There are so many ridiculous sterotypes about previous generations of women on here.

Exactly.

BluOcty · 01/12/2022 07:45

Likewise my Mum said she didn't have any symptoms. My sister and I caught each other's eye because the reality was quite different!

HilaryThorpe · 01/12/2022 08:40

It is interesting because when I first had vaginal atrophy and experienced discomfort sitting on hard chairs I realised that my grandmother must have had the same thing from comments she made. I have no doubt that the women who suffered knew all about it, but obviously there was no treatment available though it would be interesting to know if there were any folk remedies.
Of course people who "sail through" the menopause can still get ambushed by VA later on.

beastlyslumber · 01/12/2022 08:44

I would find it a bit patronising if my grown up children thought they knew better than I did about my own experience of menopause, tbh.

There are other pressures on women in their 40s and 50s and teenage kids are not known for their sensitivity. In fact, the idea that they are blaming their mother's upset and annoyance on her 'hormones' is pretty on-brand. Maybe she just got pissed off with near-adults treating her like the family slave. Maybe she got to an age where she felt she could speak up rather than run around after you.

I mean, it's possible a child knows more about her mother's experience than the mother herself, but I'd err on the side of caution with that.

EBearhug · 01/12/2022 10:29

We do forget things, though. I have recently started seeing a counsellor because I kept crying. I was looking back at my diary for January to find out when I had been somewhere, and texted was a comment back there that I kept crying and didn't know why. If someone asked, I'd have said I had a pretty good year till September - I didn't remember having been like that in January. So I can easily believe we forget how things were years before.

MadelineUsher · 01/12/2022 10:42

Of course people who "sail through" the menopause can still get ambushed by VA later on.

Lot of people on this thread mocking their mothers and grandmothers for their "ignorance" of menopause symptoms who seem totally unaware of VA and/or its symptomology and progression, or of the large percentage of women who are eventually affected by it, despite being on HRT.