Why do our schoolchildren behave so badly?

[somanyquestionz]

I see a lot of posts on here about schools/teaching and how behaviour in schools is getting worse. I started teaching English in France this year and was really worried about it because I know what British kids are like and expected the French to be no different. I've been pleasantly surprised though as they are really well behaved. I work with 15-18 year olds and they're all lovely. All really polite and get on with the work and come up with good ideas when we have group discussions. They can sometimes be a bit noisy but will be quiet if they are told. Meanwhile, I read so many horror stories online and hear awful things from teachers I know in real life. I remember being at school and the kids were horrible to the teachers, fights every single day, a pregnant teacher got punched in the stomach (baby survived luckily), someone smeared poo all over the wall in the toilets, doors and windows getting smashed every day. And that was before Covid and TikTok.
So why are our kids so bad? French kids are on social media too and use TikTok, they all went through the pandemic, some of them experience problems at home just like here. I know about 10 other people also teaching English and the behaviour is good in all schools. When I told the French English teachers (if that makes sense!) about what our schools are like, they were shocked.

They can’t be gentle parenting if they aren’t setting boundaries, gentle parenting involves boundaries….

I have a theory!!!

I think it's the opposite to attachment disorder but basically the same effect iyswim?

Children have their early years where their parents excuse the behaviour. Instead of understand the fund ruin of behaviour and teaching skills or avoiding triggers they allow it to happen "because ...."

So when they get to secondary school and they are expected to be resilient or have coping strategies or even just behave in a group like the group they feel unable to do so. They aren't special anymore or excused. I think this is why so many suffer poor mental health too because they don't know how to just be "one of a kind" and not the special one.

I've spent many years working in education and have my own disabled ds. I work in behaviour and totally understand it is always a function of communication.

But I'm seeing more and more the function generally appears to be communication that they just don't understand why they have to conform or the many excuses are just that - an excuse not a genuine reason.

I feel bad that my time is taken away from pupils with genuine need and genuine functions of their behaviour who are really struggling to talk to students and put in place strategies to help them understand that "yes, when they teacher said everyone needed to complete x homework - they did mean you. And no - leaving it until the last minute because you went out with your mates Monday and Tuesday and then not understanding it the night before is not a reason."

I actually find it quite sad.

Sometimes dealing with the parents is harder than supporting the pupils. At least the pupils realise quickly I'm on their side and want them achieve and have a sense of achievement and security.

Because schools have such poor behaviour policies.

I’m a “strict” parent. (I think I’m just normal but I’m strict compared to how wet most everyone else seems these days). My children have clear boundaries and know the consequences of overstepping them. At the same time they have plenty of opportunities to let off steam and goof around. I will not tolerate bad manners, being rude/cheeky, yorping and shouting in restaurants that kind of thing.

Then the school has a policy of “two minute chats” for bad behaviour after constant warnings or something pathetic.

My boy can be lively. They phone me from school and tell me he’s getting 2 minute chats twice a day and he doesn’t listen. You can tell he switches off and ignores me.

I tell his teacher what do you want me to do about it? You’re in charge you discipline him, give him one warning, then set him a clear consequence keep him in at break, make him write lines, clean the cupboards out whatever. Your behaviour policy is nonsense.

Next time he starts she warns him he’ll lose his golden time and have to do a worksheet instead. She enforced it once and he’s been pretty much good as gold since.

I cannot punish him for something hours ago that happened at school back in the home. He’s just turned 7 he will not connect the two.

It’s the lamest policy I’ve ever seen it has no consequences at all. Just hollow words!!

“I live next door to a primary school and have worked with recent school leavers for ages, and I think there is far, far, far more evidence of people enjoying whining about young people, than there is evidence of actual bad behaviour.”

So much I want to say in relation to this but I have absolutely no energy and a throbbing migraine as a result of spending the day with 11yo children who respond ‘none of your business’ when asked a question, ‘you stupid cow’ and the list goes on. Such a severely misbehaved set of children in a community school. And no, I’m not whining, I am genuinely in pain because I’m sure you can imagine trying to have my voice heard over a class of 31 said children who really don’t want to learn, is absolutely draining and migraine inducing.

I have two friends who teach abroad, not France but they describe what the OP describes. And they have taught in England too and have made the same comparison. I am desperately applying for jobs out of teaching because this behaviour has become so normalised in schools and it’s not something I want to be a part of. I have worked across different schools and whilst there are many with good behaviour, there are just as many with bad behaviour.

I'm British but my DC are Danish. I can't compare to British schools now but only what I experienced vs what dc experience now.
Proactive anti bullying and acceptance from age 3. Anti bullying activities once a week at kindergarten.
Much lower expectations in terms of skills (reading, writing etc).
Much greater focus on relationships. Talking to children about why they messed up rather than punishment without any explanation.
A more equal relationship between adults and children. My DC call their teachers by their first names.
A welfare state which means that your chances of higher education aren't necessarily based on your grades. You need to be good enough, not a star in everything. You don't need to be an amazing athlete to get a scholarship.
Focus on work life balance so parents have enough headspace to deal with your dc.
Highly subsidized childcare means everyone can afford to work.
Less snobbery and a greater understanding that not everyone can go to Oxbridge but that we need bus drivers too. It's more important to contribute to society. Relieves a lot of pressure and shame from those who don't find reading and writing easy

In short less stress and a more egalitarian culture.

I have spent quite a lot of time living with French families with small children. It’s quite simple, the kids are treated as adults and respond to it. By this I mean they have dinner at the table with parents every evening, they are expected to fit in with the parents’ lives, and there’s something about French mothers that is very calm and authoritative. The houses are also more quiet and theres more of a focus on calming activities like reading, card games, puzzles etc rather than screens

l don’t believe this is a French thing, it’s a parental education thing.

I think some areas of France are as bad as some areas of England. As mentioned above, Marseille is notorious,

I teach in Scotland, we're lucky to escape the more nightmarish aspects of the English school system, but it's not all roses. I work in a school with many pupils from the lowest SIMDs (Scottish indicators of multiple deprivation) in a big, inner-city. Mainly, I love my job, and the kids are great, but recently things are worsening. The inclusion policy means a slavish worship of the nurturing principle 'All behaviour is communication' . I agree with the sentiments, of course, but I was told last week that asking a child who was swearing and refusing to work to leave the room to work one to one with a TA was making him 'feel rejected'. What about how the rest of the kids feel? Or me? Fuck that for a game of soldiers.

I have experience of British schools and Swedish schools. I don't think it's about gentle parenting or Sweden would have the worst behaved schools in the world. I think it's about selfishness. Sadly there's an increasing number of selfish parents raising selfish kids. They're not learning how to take care of each other, the value of community and that it isn't always about them.

And I’m not particularly strict, but all four of ours were polite and well behaved at school.

That’s not gentle parenting that’s permissive parenting. Gentle parenting has discipline and boundaries

Oh I do love a sweeping generalisation thread.

It is not all roses in France. I went to a very normal northern U.K. comprehensive with a catchment area that was diverse in socio-economic terms to say the least. Saw a wide range of behaviour.

I also taught in primary schools in eastern France. And ditto. Some schools with no issues at all. Others with real issues in equivalent of Year 5/6. Not listening, being rude, throwing things….and the staff seemed very lily-livered when it came to dealing with it. It was basically impossible to teach one or two classes and all my fellow assistants had the same experience.

I had to break up a fight once (one boy trying to smash another boy’s head onto the desk; I was the only adult and wasn’t supposed to be left alone). My 20-something response was to physically separate the aggressor and frogmarch him into the corridor to cool down, while sending another child for another member of staff. Lots of handwringing from the class teacher about how it wouldn’t look good if the inspecteur came by, to find a child in the corridor. I’m not sure what I was supposed to do, just keep asking him nicely not to smash his classmate’s head into the desk?!

What I would say is that there is a greater emphasis on conformity in France, at all ages - or at least, there was 20 years ago when I lived there. There was a right way and a wrong way of doing just about everything from dressing a salad to wrapping a present. We are much more individual as a society in the U.K. - and in a positive note, more accepting of difference. Each way has different advantages.

@StrictlyAFemaleFemale love this

A few years ago I lived in a French village. Every month, the local council brought out a pamphlet, with details of forthcoming events. Also included, were reports of any anti social behaviour. The perpetrators were named, and generally, that was the end of it.
There was also a culture that neighbours would reprimand other people's children, and no-one erupted in fury.
I can't even begin to imagine either of these happening in the UK. But it does help to point out the differences in French and British society.

It's weird so many blame gentle parenting, is that really your lived experience? That the badly behaved kids you meet are gentle parented? Because it's not mine. We live in an area of deprivation. I can think of at least 6 kids in my children's classes that have severe behavioural problems. Nine are gentle parented. They do come from families which struggle with economic deprivation, where they have unstable home lives (unstable relationships, maybe an absent parent) and where the parents don't have particularly great parenting skills because they're facing a lot of their own battles - I see these kids being yelled at more, not less, by parents who just don't know how to control them. Or the parents give up - allow them to be out without knowing where they are and watch 18 films and porn on the Internet. They get involved with sinister stuff like County lines. I can guarantee that gentle parents put boundaries in place to stop these things from happening. Blaming gentle parenting ignores the serious problems in society caused by mental health issues, deprivation and poverty, poor living conditions, abuse, lack of education and just not coping. These kids don't card and are disruptive, which means the other kids follow along. I find it hard to believe nowhere in france has the same problems though.

There was also a culture that neighbours would reprimand other people's children, and no-one erupted in fury.

Well that’s definitely a cultural difference going by some of the AIBUs on here…

Haha none not nine

I went to school in France and England. There were just as massive problems with behaviour, but they were different ones. Perhaps ones it was easier for a teacher not to see, but I only have my own experience to go by, I don’t know. The sexual harassment was worse in the French school.

I think a lot of it is down to money tbh after teaching 37 years.

We have a shit government who won’t find anything, Slso l believe in France all teachers do is teach. In the U.K. they are also, psychologists, counsellors, advisers, and carry the whole pastoral thing.

I have 2 DC in primary and 2 in secondary. In both schools I know teachers (family /friends before they were born!) who describe the “bad” behaviour which is very mild. Vast majority of pupils very polite and cooperative. I’ve never been called/ had a teacher ask to speak to me/ written a note to me about any incident in school. In every parents evening and report they have said their behaviour is good and always commented about their good manners.

I think I am a gentle/attached parent. Definitely rarely shouting and punishing. Mostly talking through, apologising, role playing /talking through alternatives, distraction when small.

I definitely don’t think they are any more special than other peoples children. They have been told to comply with what teacher asks. The older ones understand the difference between actually learning and the things you just have to do and go along with that are sometimes not a benefit to them.

Much as I dislike the current government we can’t just put everything down to ‘shit government’. This is more of a familial/societal issue.

People love to say it’s gentle parenting in every single one of these threads, but my answer to that is who is to blame for parents choosing “gentle parenting” if you think it’s such a problem? It must be their own parents. If parents are responsible for everything then all we can do is blame the grandparents for not raising the current parents as good enough parents. That must be it.

Much as I dislike the current government we can’t just put everything down to ‘shit government’. This is more of a familial/societal issue

But more money in schools would go some way to solving this.

how?

How?

Redefone the education system to make technical education equivalent to university education in terms of prestige. Make the disaffected feel valued.