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Letby Case (part 2)

990 replies

OneFrenchEgg · 26/11/2022 08:14

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4652340-lucy-letby-court-case?reply=121815754

follow up, remember rules around discussion of active cases

OP posts:
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17
BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz · 28/06/2023 08:32

Does Jury deliberation start today?

HelensToenail · 28/06/2023 08:37

@BernadetteRostankowskiWolowitz deliberation starts 3rd July

Day 3 of defences summing up today

DysonSpheres · 28/06/2023 09:29

CinderRosie · 27/06/2023 14:37

I am very glad I am not on this jury.

Yes. Absolutely.

I kept waiting through this trial to hear something solid that would make me, as a juror feel comfortable concluding a guilty verdict or not guilty.

From bits I've followed here and in reddit (I've avoided Tattle as there's too much bias) there's no strong solid evidence either way.

I think I'd be returning not guilty and still not sleep at night

Or guilty...and still not sleep at night wondering if I made the wrong call.

I think they'll return guilty but not for all the babies.

In future how such cases are reported in the news needs a serious review.

DysonSpheres · 28/06/2023 09:30

*Hypothetical juror of course.

Mirabai · 28/06/2023 10:57

I would find not guilty on all counts because I don’t think a single one has been satisfactorily proven. Not speculating on her guilt as, even at this point, it’s not clear. I think she will be found guilty on some charges because juries tend to be bamboozled by experts and they may not be aware how tenuous their claims are.

Myers has done a good job and I totally agree with him that the prosecution case seems to have been built on the basis of presumed guilt. It has not found evidence so it has mainly put forward theory to fit the hypothesis.

Mirabai · 28/06/2023 10:59

Myers also did an effective summary of the problems with the air embolism theories:

Scientific evidence of how nurse Lucy Letby was said to have harmed a number of babies was “so poor” it cannot be “safely used” to support the allegations, a court has heard.

It is claimed Letby, 33, targeted a number of infants at the Countess of Chester Hospital’s neonatal unit by injecting air into their bloodstream.
The prosecution say this caused an air embolism which blocked their blood supply and led to sudden and unexpected collapse, with some proving fatal.

On Tuesday, Ben Myers KC, continued his defence closing speech at Manchester Crown Court and asked the jury of eight women and four men to consider how the theory of air embolus worked in this case.

He said: “This is meant to be reliable, scientific medical theory, underpinning the most serious allegations.

“At the heart of it are prosecution experts Dr Dewi Evans and Dr Sandie Bohin. They are the ones we say are pushing it and the prosecution rely on it, of course. Neither of them has clinical experience in identifying or treating air embolus.”

He said both had principally relied on a research paper written more than 30 years ago about the effect of air embolism on infants.

That study, said Mr Myers, showed 11% of 53 children had displayed signs of skin discolouration.

In several cases there were “blanching and migrating areas of cutaneous pallor”, the court heard, and in one case there was “bright pink vessels against a generally cyanosed cutaneous background”.

Mr Myers told jurors: “As a basis for conviction for someone of murder and attempted murder it is tenuous in the extreme.” He added: “That meagre piece of research has carried into guesswork in this case.”

Mr Myers said both experts had identified five clinical features to support the identification of an air embolus – the presence of an intravenous (IV) cannula, a sudden and unexpected collapse, unusual skin discolouration, the presence of air in the great vessels of the heart and that resuscitation was unsuccessful.

He added: “Apart from needing to have an IV entry point, we say not one of those criteria has been applied consistently … during this trial.

“They (the experts) have chopped and changed them as much as required to fit the available evidence. Extraordinary contortions made to fit that theory.”

He said there were “many causes” of discolouration in a baby and in this case there was no precise record taken such as a photograph.

The descriptions varied between witnesses, he said, and sometimes came months and years afterwards, following discussions with other witnesses.
Mr Myers said: “The dangers of recollection being contaminated and influenced are obvious.”

He said the number of babies in this case who recovered from an alleged injection of air “does not make sense”, and that any neonate had the “medical potential” to deteriorate suddenly and unexpectedly.

Air in the great vessels of the heart does not in itself diagnose a gas embolus, Mr Myers said.

He told jurors: “Scientific evidence needs to be sufficiently reliable if you are going to rely on it. What guidance you have had from the experts has been applied inconsistently throughout the case. “The evidence is so poor it cannot be safely used to support these allegations”

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/uk-news/lucy-letby-court-air-injection-27211112

GemmaN17 · 28/06/2023 11:46

I still think the defence is undermined by the fact that didn't bring any other witnesses. He can pretty much say what he likes with no comeback at this point as no cross examinations.

I think we have to rely on the jury making the right call, this has taken over their lives now for 34 weeks.

I would imagine whatever the verdict this isn't over, the insulin babies at the very least?? I'm wondering if they will say what happened with the reporting of the insulin levels been contradictory between prosecution and defence. Will this be at the end if it is, possibly done by the judge?

Mirabai · 28/06/2023 12:04

I agree that the defence should have brought in their own experts on the embolism cases. However, we don’t know that the defence didn’t put in a strong argument at the time as it wasn’t really reported. It was reported that Myers pointed took a firm line that the experts were not experts in this area and they were making these assertions in parenthesis.

Mirabai · 28/06/2023 12:06

He’s unlikely to be raising points in his summary that he didn’t make at the time. So I infer they weren’t reported.

whatausername · 28/06/2023 12:45

Mirabai · 28/06/2023 12:06

He’s unlikely to be raising points in his summary that he didn’t make at the time. So I infer they weren’t reported.

Very true. Closing arguments are not the time for new arguments or information.

The reporting on this trial has been quite frustrating at times. Although with so few journalists covering it and a complex trial, it must be a real challenge to listen and type it up simultaneously.

GemmaN17 · 28/06/2023 13:05

Mirabai · 28/06/2023 12:06

He’s unlikely to be raising points in his summary that he didn’t make at the time. So I infer they weren’t reported.

I would agree, it just would have been more balanced for me if the prosecution got to cross examine any medical information he is using during his closing, it all seems very much based on his own opinions. I know that's not how it works and it's up to each side how what/they present and it's obviously tactical but it doesn't sit well with me.

Unfortunately it's the shear amount of a babies that informs my perspective, if it had been one or two then I would have enough doubt however something was clearly going on at this hospital, something sinister and deliberate.

Mirabai · 28/06/2023 13:42

it just would have been more balanced for me if the prosecution got to cross examine any medical information he is using during his closing, it all seems very much based on his own opinions

That’s already been done.

The number of babies is not relevant to whether it’s murder. It means something was going on at the unit - but that may be serious problems with care and babies too sick for the care level rather than a malignant actor.

One has to look at each case individually and consider whether it meets the standard of proof required.

NewmumSara · 28/06/2023 13:43

GemmaN17 · 28/06/2023 13:05

I would agree, it just would have been more balanced for me if the prosecution got to cross examine any medical information he is using during his closing, it all seems very much based on his own opinions. I know that's not how it works and it's up to each side how what/they present and it's obviously tactical but it doesn't sit well with me.

Unfortunately it's the shear amount of a babies that informs my perspective, if it had been one or two then I would have enough doubt however something was clearly going on at this hospital, something sinister and deliberate.

Unfortunately, it’s the shear number of deaths investigated initially (see article below) the damning CQC reports of countless failings in the hospital, the fact that nurse Lucy Letby had raised a grievance with the Trust in 2017
( highlighting I would imagine failings by certain staff members in her grievance, one could refer to it as whistleblowing) , the fact that Miss Letby was working as a nurse in the same hospital since 2011 but a new head of paediatrics ( Dr Ravi Jayaram) was appointed in 2015, no evidence or motive presented by the Prosecution, however, a clear motive to scapegoat Lucy Letby presented by her Defence etc…
that informs my perspective that something negligent was going on at this hospital.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/18/police-investigating-baby-deaths-at-countess-of-chester-hospital

Sent from my iPhone

SisterAgatha · 28/06/2023 13:44

I don’t agree with the number not being a factor. Are there any compatible number of neonate deaths at any other hospital in any comparable range of time. The triplets too, seems too many deaths for it not to be a malignant factor.

SisterAgatha · 28/06/2023 13:45

Whether LL was that malignant factor is the pertinent point.

GemmaN17 · 28/06/2023 13:55

Mirabai · 28/06/2023 13:42

it just would have been more balanced for me if the prosecution got to cross examine any medical information he is using during his closing, it all seems very much based on his own opinions

That’s already been done.

The number of babies is not relevant to whether it’s murder. It means something was going on at the unit - but that may be serious problems with care and babies too sick for the care level rather than a malignant actor.

One has to look at each case individually and consider whether it meets the standard of proof required.

It hasn't though, the defence got to cross examine the prosecution claims on medical infornation however the defence had none of their own... If they wish to defend their points they should have brought witnesses and allowed the prosecution to cross examine, that would have been balanced. He is obviously using it now as the prosecution cannot question him. It's very tactical and doesn't sit right with me.

The judge has even said they can look at all of the cases together so he thinks the number of babies is relevant and important too.

GemmaN17 · 28/06/2023 14:02

NewmumSara · 28/06/2023 13:43

Unfortunately, it’s the shear number of deaths investigated initially (see article below) the damning CQC reports of countless failings in the hospital, the fact that nurse Lucy Letby had raised a grievance with the Trust in 2017
( highlighting I would imagine failings by certain staff members in her grievance, one could refer to it as whistleblowing) , the fact that Miss Letby was working as a nurse in the same hospital since 2011 but a new head of paediatrics ( Dr Ravi Jayaram) was appointed in 2015, no evidence or motive presented by the Prosecution, however, a clear motive to scapegoat Lucy Letby presented by her Defence etc…
that informs my perspective that something negligent was going on at this hospital.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/may/18/police-investigating-baby-deaths-at-countess-of-chester-hospital

Sent from my iPhone

Her grievance was because she had been taken out of the department and put behind a desk wasn't it.

Should they have continued letting her look after babies that she maybe harming? How wouldn't that be the worst negligence of all. Regardless of whether she is innocent or guilty that would have been far worse not investigating. Since then she is now on trial, the police think they have enough evidence to charge and convict her.

We are all obviously entitled to our own opinions that is mine.

NewmumSara · 28/06/2023 14:08

I really do feel that Mr Myers is being advised by medical professionals behind the scenes but any doctor would be terrified to take the stand for fear of an angry backlash from the « Baying Mob ». As a mother I could understand that, I probably wouldn’t want to risk my life or my family’s, for that matter, although that said I think I would find it hard to sleep at night, if it meant I could save the life of an innocent person.

Please other posters don’t respond angrily to what I have just said.

Mirabai · 28/06/2023 14:09

SisterAgatha · 28/06/2023 13:44

I don’t agree with the number not being a factor. Are there any compatible number of neonate deaths at any other hospital in any comparable range of time. The triplets too, seems too many deaths for it not to be a malignant factor.

It’s not a factor that indicates murder is the point. It could equally indicate negligence and problems at that unit as much as murder - as in the two confirmed cases of negligence ending in death and CP.

There have been other units at other hospitals that have had high body counts either over a long period or a sudden escalation - that have been found have been the result of serious failings at the unit.

It’s precisely this kind of flawed reasoning that one hopes the jury will avoid. (Although I doubt it).

GemmaN17 · 28/06/2023 14:10

SisterAgatha · 28/06/2023 13:45

Whether LL was that malignant factor is the pertinent point.

Exactly, people seem to be missing this, if it was negligence why hadn't it been apparent at such numbers beforehand?? It makes no sense.

Mirabai · 28/06/2023 14:11

GemmaN17 · 28/06/2023 13:55

It hasn't though, the defence got to cross examine the prosecution claims on medical infornation however the defence had none of their own... If they wish to defend their points they should have brought witnesses and allowed the prosecution to cross examine, that would have been balanced. He is obviously using it now as the prosecution cannot question him. It's very tactical and doesn't sit right with me.

The judge has even said they can look at all of the cases together so he thinks the number of babies is relevant and important too.

Myers raised these points in the cross-examination of the expert witnesses.

If Myers was doing anything unbalance the trial the judge would have pulled him up on it.

Mirabai · 28/06/2023 14:12

SisterAgatha · 28/06/2023 13:45

Whether LL was that malignant factor is the pertinent point.

And that’s precisely the point for which there is unsufficient evidence.

GemmaN17 · 28/06/2023 14:12

NewmumSara · 28/06/2023 14:08

I really do feel that Mr Myers is being advised by medical professionals behind the scenes but any doctor would be terrified to take the stand for fear of an angry backlash from the « Baying Mob ». As a mother I could understand that, I probably wouldn’t want to risk my life or my family’s, for that matter, although that said I think I would find it hard to sleep at night, if it meant I could save the life of an innocent person.

Please other posters don’t respond angrily to what I have just said.

It was the way you wrote it to me directly, perhaps use your own phrases to set out you own opinions in the future.

GemmaN17 · 28/06/2023 14:13

Mirabai · 28/06/2023 14:11

Myers raised these points in the cross-examination of the expert witnesses.

If Myers was doing anything unbalance the trial the judge would have pulled him up on it.

You don't see my point, that's fine.

GemmaN17 · 28/06/2023 14:15

Mirabai · 28/06/2023 14:09

It’s not a factor that indicates murder is the point. It could equally indicate negligence and problems at that unit as much as murder - as in the two confirmed cases of negligence ending in death and CP.

There have been other units at other hospitals that have had high body counts either over a long period or a sudden escalation - that have been found have been the result of serious failings at the unit.

It’s precisely this kind of flawed reasoning that one hopes the jury will avoid. (Although I doubt it).

I just hope the jury do what they want, they are best placed to judge, it isn't up to us to decide what they should and shouldnt do.