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Why the hate for Qatar when people flock to Dubai?

185 replies

piddocktrumperiness · 04/11/2022 16:35

I 'm not quite getting why people are quick to criticise Qatar and its human rights record and treatment of LGBTQ+, when every country in the gulf does the same. This government is in bed with the Saudis, sold lots of landmarks to the Qatari Royal family and many brits are quick to emigrate to Dubai. We even accept sponsorships from these countries.

For the record I'm not condoning any of these Gulf regions- I believe they are all equally bad and treat not only LGBTQ+ badly, but every nationality that is not white American/European/Australian.

I just don't think you can pick and choose- you either state that you condemn all of these regions, or you kind of keep quiet. If the World Cup was held in the Emirates, with most of the games in Dubai, I don't quite imagine the same criticism take place?

So why is the news singling out Qatar?

OP posts:
User963 · 07/11/2022 07:21

Annasgirl · 04/11/2022 16:40

I don’t think they are the same people - I would never go to either. For me it’s about women’s rights BTW - a travesty that Governments, sports bodies and MSM and social media worthies seem happy to ignore.

This

ExpatinQatar · 07/11/2022 07:25

Brefugee · 05/11/2022 21:55

you can defend it all you like @ExpatinQatar but you're living in a country with an appalling human rights record. And by working there you're helping them prosper. I assume you're ok with that. I, and many like me, are not.

I was at a football match today (German 2nd division) and there was a huge banner in the stadium bearing the legend "#BoycottQatar2022" and it got huge applause, as did the one in the Berlin olympic stadium later for the Hertha v Bayern game. There is a lot of support for a boycott, and I'll be joining them.

It's not just about the human rights, that is bad enough. PP are right, the WC in Russia was an appalling decision but at least that country has a history of playing football. Qatar? not so much. So no, i won't be supporting them or giving them any of my money as much as i can possibly avoid it.

Is my own country perfect? no. (neither, dual citizenship) but bloody hell i do what i can to make things better from voting, going on demos and volunteering etc. Could i do that as a woman in Qatar? could i fuck.

I am not actually defending it, I am just trying to give you a more accurate picture of what actually is happening in Qatar. From what I read online, few people seem to know much about Qatar at all, they just read a couple headlines and decided they now knew all about it. I have seen so many inaccurate things written and I bet if you asked the people boycotting, most wouldn't really know much about actual Qatar laws and practices or life here at all.

Now you can say that since there are human rights violations, then it doesn't matter what is true or not true and that the hate is deserved for both what happens and what doesn't. And that if making up a bunch of fake more extreme stories and headlines brings attention to the oppression that does happen - then good is still done in the end. That is certainly one approach.

70billionthnamechange · 07/11/2022 07:52

Ooh love me a Dubai brunch

Brefugee · 07/11/2022 07:55

I am not actually defending it, I am just trying to give you a more accurate picture of what actually is happening in Qatar. From what I read online, few people seem to know much about Qatar at all, they just read a couple headlines and decided they now knew all about it. I have seen so many inaccurate things written and I bet if you asked the people boycotting, most wouldn't really know much about actual Qatar laws and practices or life here at all.

it is very easy: aside of women's rights, Qatar has no involvement or tradition of football at all. That is the first reason. The deaths of the workers and their conditions (you're not denying that i assume?) is another. That is all. It is enough. Whether life is ok or not for citizens of Qatar or the expat community (who are presumably buffered from it anyway) is neither here nor there.

And women there aren't free, and that is enough to stop me going there any more than i would go to Iran under the current government.

sashh · 07/11/2022 08:04

ExpatinQatar · 05/11/2022 10:22

I am currently an expat living in Qatar. Single woman. The situation here is not at all how it is portrayed in headlines on social media. The history and current sociocultural progress is quite nuanced and very interesting when you get into it. Don't get me wrong - there are major human rights issues however they aren't all really Qatar driven. For example the majority of the companies and managers of the labour force are Indian - from caste / class based communities who enforce their own beliefs and views on their employees. That is another facet of the issue. Qatar makes more progressive policies but they don't trickle down in application to the people who should be putting them into effect (and there isn't really any accountability). Qatar policies require a minimum salary for all employees, accommodation allowance or provision, usually a food allowance, and permission to keep one's own passport. Labourers and domestic staff still flock to Qatar because despite the issues, the situation is still better than in their home countries and they can send far more money home and give their families far better lives than if they weren't working here.

Qatar is a mish mash of cultures and people, with very, very few of them being Qatari. Qatari citizens make up about 8% of the population. Indians make up about 30% of the population.

The last couple Emir's have been pretty progressive (by comparison to certain other countries or past Emir's) but it is like moving the Titanic in some ways. There is a lot of change happening but the starting point was so archaic that over the 30 years since social progress really started, there is still a long way to go. Additionally, the first focus from a social perspective was on ensuring health care and accommodation and education for the population. They are starting to get to human rights issues now and I think will focus on this more post FIFA - but there are very strongly held views by much of the population (that are non Qatari and even non Arab) that get in the way of the progress.

With regards to women, generally as a society it isn't that strict but certainly within families and specific cultural communities, there are still major issues. However the push to educate all Qatari women over the past 15 years has led to incredible progress. Most got their degrees abroad, many did masters and they are now in positions of leadership in the country. They are divorcing their husbands and are a very independent and assertive workforce. Educating them was a major initiative of Sheikha Moza (the previous Emir's wife) who is a very respected public figure here. Her husband's insistence that a woman be in a leadership position and lead health and education initiatives was ground breaking here and she has made a phenomenal difference.

What is the point in having laws if they are not enforced?

Have you actually spoken to any construction workers?

Human right should not be something you 'get round to' they are fundamental.

ExpatinQatar · 07/11/2022 08:28

sashh · 07/11/2022 08:04

What is the point in having laws if they are not enforced?

Have you actually spoken to any construction workers?

Human right should not be something you 'get round to' they are fundamental.

What is the point in having laws if they are not enforced?

Qatar is a very 'new' country in terms of progress. You don't go from being Bedouins and fisherman entrenched in Wahhabism to a modern, developed, socially progressive country overnight. Qatar only started to develop into a more modern culture 30 years ago, they are babies. The glitzy skyscrappers are very misleading. So much here is still ancient (everything in hard copy paper rather than done electronically, always standing in lines to get things done).

The infrastructure isn't there yet to enforce laws. The law makers are one small subset but for laws to be effective you need police systems, justice systems, civil process systems, legal systems etc that function and are in place and Qatar does not have that yet. One of the major issues is that 90+ percent of the population is expats - there are so many people from so many countries here. Language is a massive barrier. Although Qatari's speak Arabic, much of the workforce doesn't. English is the main language used in the professional workforce but at the domestic / migrant worker level, most don't speak English or Arabic and all work is done in their own native language. For example, in construction, most speak only Nepali or Bengali or an Indian dialect. They are recruited and brought to Qatar by companies and managers who speak their languages and who are ones mistreating them. There is a long chain of people between the migrant worker to the government with no clear communication channels or even shared language. So you have people at the top putting new laws in place but there just isn't a trickle down effect.

Have you actually spoken to any construction workers?

I haven't spoken to many as they don't speak English. I have interacted quite a bit with them as they are everywhere and I often would bring the ones who worked near me water and food in the summer months. However I have spoken to many, many Uber drivers and they have a pretty good handle as to what happens in many of the communities and trades. They also tell me all of their own stories.

Human right should not be something you 'get round to' they are fundamental.

I don't disagree however I think they saw health and education as being fundamental to human rights. And giving women more rights. Those 3 areas have been a focus. Without those in place, you aren't going to socially progress. There is only so much you can do in 30 years in a very small country, especially since the last 15 years have been dedicated to the World Cup.

There are major issues here. Don't get me wrong but the context isn't as people think. I am fortunate to work here in a capacity where I can impact on bettering human rights and on a personal level, I try to better individual people's days in practical ways (with money, water or food) that I interact with.

planesandtrains · 07/11/2022 09:46

@ExpatinQatar that's a really interesting perspective. A 'baby country' is exactly what they (and the UAE) are, and with populations that are majority non-native will have distinct challenges

Bramblejoos · 07/11/2022 10:12

@Brefugee My point was that lambasting Qatar is pointless when we buy their oil and gas thereby making them rich and poweful. It wasn't particularly your post but the dozens of comments from everywhere criticising them eg over the use of cheap labour and lack of safety. But I don't think here in the UK we are particularly kind to eg foreign veg and fruit pickers. I lived in the US and some of their migrant workers (mexicans and latinos) have a pretty miserable lives and can be seen building roofs with no scaffolding in place. I suspect many countries do not treat migrants well, some are even slave labour. We also depend on Gulf countries to buy our produce. German trade ministers are visiting Beijing to improve trade now - the Chinese don't have a great reputation on individuals' freedoms.
It's a bit late now for everyone to be on their soapboxes. The games are happening. Unfortunatey we need these 'bad' countries to keep our finances ticking over.

Itisbetter · 07/11/2022 10:17

Cheap Labour from less developed countries is common all over the Far and Middle East. The focus on Dubai and Qatar always feels slightly odd.

Brefugee · 07/11/2022 11:03

My point was that lambasting Qatar is pointless when we buy their oil and gas thereby making them rich and poweful

But it's nothing to do with the world cup. I personally won't visit any ME country, voluntarily, unless i know for sure that they are good places for women. And that they treat their migrant workers better than slaves.

I personally don't make the decision to buy oil from the Gulf states any more than i choose to buy my gas from Russia. I do what i can to get my point across to the decision makers in my country about that. At the ballot box, by going on demos and by buying my power from renewable sources.

I am a huge football fan. I am boilingly angry about this decision but it is not mine to make. But in the same way that i protest to my government about their decisions, i can boycott the world cup, and i will do and i am very vocal about it. One of the ways is posting the photos on twitter that i took at different football stadia this weekend of #BoycottQatar2022 signs. Another is that i won't be watching, talking about, doing sweepstakes or any of the other things that might encourage FIFA to make such a batshit decision in the future. Maybe they will, maybe they won't, but i will be taking the actions that i, as an individual, can.

You do you. And I'll carry on being very vocal about the awful decision to a) have the WC where it is, 2) not to have cancelled it and iii) to ignore all the human rights abuses that have happened as a result of FIFA basically telling Qatar to do what they like, and other countries are going along with it.

It still isn't too late for countries to pull out, and i wish they would.

Brefugee · 07/11/2022 11:06

It's a bit late now for everyone to be on their soapboxes. The games are happening. Unfortunatey we need these 'bad' countries to keep our finances ticking over.

whatever. Some of us have been on this soapbox since the event was awarded, and before that when it was awarded to Russia.

I, along with plenty of other Germans, have been emailing the government ministers like mad to bring up China's HR abuses when they visit. Again: what do you want us to do? Just because you're content to do nothing because you can't change anything, don't tar us all with the same brush

And it is exhausting, and yes, there are things that i do that compromise what i believe in, because it is nigh on impossible to avoid everything.

Brefugee · 07/11/2022 11:07

Cheap Labour from less developed countries is common all over the Far and Middle East. The focus on Dubai and Qatar always feels slightly odd.

again - why is there always an assumption that when something finally hits the news, we've only ever been on about that one and ignored everything else? Is it because people don't pay attention to anything unless it jumps up and hits them in the headlines?

Bramblejoos · 07/11/2022 12:52

Well done @Brefugee I must admit I am slow to send letters and emails. I will try harder.

Brefugee · 07/11/2022 12:55

Don't feel bad - we all do what we can and have time/spoons for.
Sometimes I don't have the energy and have to hope someone else is on the ball.

reigatecastle · 07/11/2022 17:10

Annasgirl · 04/11/2022 16:40

I don’t think they are the same people - I would never go to either. For me it’s about women’s rights BTW - a travesty that Governments, sports bodies and MSM and social media worthies seem happy to ignore.

Precisely this. And the fact that the climate is horrible. Too hot for me. And nothing to do.

OverTheRubicon · 07/11/2022 23:26

Brefugee · 07/11/2022 11:07

Cheap Labour from less developed countries is common all over the Far and Middle East. The focus on Dubai and Qatar always feels slightly odd.

again - why is there always an assumption that when something finally hits the news, we've only ever been on about that one and ignored everything else? Is it because people don't pay attention to anything unless it jumps up and hits them in the headlines?

Because people don't gleefully announce they're going to Saudi to get some sun over the half term. It's the holiday and fun focus that makes it particularly horrible.

TomTraubertsBlues · 07/11/2022 23:36

piddocktrumperiness · 04/11/2022 16:43

@OnlyFoolsnMothers I'm not quite getting your message here. I have lived outside of Europe- in the Middle East actually and I am saying that you can't pick to go to one country in the gulf for example The Emirates and herald at as being 'progressive, or modern' , and have an issue with Qatar- The gulf is notorious for its poor treatment of many groups- behind all the glitz and glam, they're all v v similar

I don't think anybody is doing this though. The people I know who are criticising Qatar also criticise Dubai. I don't know anyone who would holiday there, precisely because of its human rights record etc.

arctica · 08/11/2022 20:16

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63561340

Salman said: "[Homosexuality] is haram. You know what haram [forbidden] means?"

When asked why it was haram, he added: "I am not a strict Muslim but why is it haram? Because it is damage in the mind."

How can anyone think holding the world cup here is a good idea?

ExpatinQatar · 08/11/2022 21:11

arctica · 08/11/2022 20:16

www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/63561340

Salman said: "[Homosexuality] is haram. You know what haram [forbidden] means?"

When asked why it was haram, he added: "I am not a strict Muslim but why is it haram? Because it is damage in the mind."

How can anyone think holding the world cup here is a good idea?

Same sex marriage was illegal in England until 2013.

Homosexuality was in the DSM as sexual deviance and a mental illness until the 1970s and with a caveat that it caused distress until 2013.

Qatar has progressed in starting to move away from the far right of Wahhabism and to a more moderate Islamic State but that is a journey that takes more than 30 years to achieve.

There is definitely a strong negative view of homosexuality based on Islamic beliefs. Homosexuality is also a very foreign concept to most people here in Qatar. Most people have never knowingly met or interacted with anyone who is homosexual and so there is a complete discomfort and a fear based on the unknown, the younger generation has a better understanding as they see social media and hear differing perspectives but they aren't convinced.

Homosexuality is something that almost every country has seen as wrong, illness, etc and it is only time and social progress that has led to differing views. Qatar is no different, they are just much farther behind on the timeline.

I can definitely see that if someone intentionally acts overtly gay, they will get backlash from the locals, people may tell them they are bad or wrong or should stop etc. They aren't going to be stoned in the street, but it likely won't be a comfortable environment.

Brefugee · 09/11/2022 07:38

It is, of course, up to each country to have their own laws.
It is up to us if we want to go there not and why, and it is (where we are at least) not illegal to say why.

It is also, of course, fine to focus on one, a few, or lots, of issues that are wrong with the wider world at a time. I have a couple of things i keep my eye on and talk about all over the place because i find them hugely wrong. I'm a football fan, and the awarding of the WC to Russia and Qatar, the way it was handled and announced? nope. It's our game, the fans, not FIFA. They are corrupt and wrong-headed and we see them. And it is entirely right that we are protesting about this right now because it is about to happen.

And anyone who thinks that boycott Qatar is a new thing isn't a fan of football, and that's fine, but now it's in the mainstream more and more I'm not listening to whataboutery from anyone.

People make decisions all the time as adults, and they are often (sometimes difficult) compromises. That is how modern adult life is. If you're ok with living in Qatar, holidaying in Dubai, using products with palm oil or buying Nestlé products (to name a few that are doing the rounds right now) that is your personal decision. Stand by it. If you are persuaded by arguments about why not to do that, also fine. But you do those things knowing that many people have reasons not to, so wide-eyed "but but whatabout" doesn't cut any ice.

I am especially ignoring anyone who pops out of the woodwork who has been telling me for years how awful football is as a game, why do i waste my time/money on it etc etc, and is now all "oh but i bet you'll watch it anyway" because: fuck off.

Midlifemusings · 09/11/2022 07:43

Brefugee · 09/11/2022 07:38

It is, of course, up to each country to have their own laws.
It is up to us if we want to go there not and why, and it is (where we are at least) not illegal to say why.

It is also, of course, fine to focus on one, a few, or lots, of issues that are wrong with the wider world at a time. I have a couple of things i keep my eye on and talk about all over the place because i find them hugely wrong. I'm a football fan, and the awarding of the WC to Russia and Qatar, the way it was handled and announced? nope. It's our game, the fans, not FIFA. They are corrupt and wrong-headed and we see them. And it is entirely right that we are protesting about this right now because it is about to happen.

And anyone who thinks that boycott Qatar is a new thing isn't a fan of football, and that's fine, but now it's in the mainstream more and more I'm not listening to whataboutery from anyone.

People make decisions all the time as adults, and they are often (sometimes difficult) compromises. That is how modern adult life is. If you're ok with living in Qatar, holidaying in Dubai, using products with palm oil or buying Nestlé products (to name a few that are doing the rounds right now) that is your personal decision. Stand by it. If you are persuaded by arguments about why not to do that, also fine. But you do those things knowing that many people have reasons not to, so wide-eyed "but but whatabout" doesn't cut any ice.

I am especially ignoring anyone who pops out of the woodwork who has been telling me for years how awful football is as a game, why do i waste my time/money on it etc etc, and is now all "oh but i bet you'll watch it anyway" because: fuck off.

Many of the boycott Qatar related headlines I saw were about thousands of deaths in Qatar that were being attributed to workplace accidents / World Cup. This is factually 100% wrong yet seems to be the basis for many people's boycotts. Which tells me they don't actually care about the issues but just being seen as someone who looks like they care about issues and jump on bandwagons. If you are going to actually create change or advocate for it - you should know what the real problems are and research the facts. It just makes people look stupid and lose credibility when they boycott based on a factually incorrect headlines they read somewhere.

SueVineer · 09/11/2022 07:43

piddocktrumperiness · 04/11/2022 16:48

Perhaps it's just in my social circle then, but yes I have had this conversation with some colleagues at work- who have worked in Kuwait, holidayed in Morocco, Egypt and Dubai (all where being gay is still officially illegal) and for some reason are drawing the line at Qatar- I could not get to the end of it. The only thing they kept coming back to is that the former countries have made an effort to be inclusive, progressive and so long as you respect local customs everything is ok?
What? That did not make much sense to me.

I think some people often adopt the latest opinion without really thinking about it.so your friends have decided quatar = bad despite being happy with other gulf countries with similar human rights records.

Brefugee · 09/11/2022 07:51

Many of the boycott Qatar related headlines I saw were about thousands of deaths in Qatar that were being attributed to workplace accidents / World Cup. This is factually 100% wrong yet seems to be the basis for many people's boycotts.

Any evidence outside of the Qatar and/or FIFA marketing folk?

I have had this conversation with some colleagues at work- who have worked in Kuwait, holidayed in Morocco, Egypt and Dubai (all where being gay is still officially illegal) and for some reason are drawing the line at Qatar-

there is always a tipping point. If people are taking this as their tipping point where's the problem? Playing a football world cup at this time of year is unprecedented but i can wrap my head round it if it was in a football playing nation like Australia, Argentina etc etc

It is a coming together of several things. As I've said before a lot of people engaged more-or-less with the WC in Russia based on several other criteria, but still roundly criticised their politics, their leadership etc etc (and FIFA).

Everyone can draw their own lines, and they can make their own compromises. It is fine to point out their doublethink, sometimes they don't even realise and re-evaluate. Sometimes they have other reasons they can't get round. But whataboutery as "ha, gotcha" arms folded (or "end of") is silly and not helpful.

gogohmm · 09/11/2022 07:56

I wouldn't go to Dubai either! I have used Middle Eastern airlines for cost reasons which is a bit hypocritical but didn't spend a penny waiting at the airport unless you mean the euphemism, yes they had nice toilets!

CredibilityProblem · 09/11/2022 08:00

There's a lot of unclarity about migrant worker deaths in Qatar. There aren't a huge number of recorded work-related deaths, but there's some scepticism that a lot of the thousands of deaths from "natural causes" might be related to working conditions in the extreme heat.
amp.theguardian.com/global-development/2021/feb/23/revealed-migrant-worker-deaths-qatar-fifa-world-cup-2022
Without a breakdown of numbers of workers from each country by age it's hard to work out whether 6,500 is really a worryingly large number over the period of decade or not.

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