Do you know what a grammar school is?

[chestonher]

Seems a silly question but here me out

DH didn't know. Not really, some vague idea but that was it.

My SIL didn't have a clue, I asked her out of interest in passing about any local ones. She said 'what's that? ' a friend of hers was there at the time and agreed she didn't know either that such a thing existed - that you could take a test to her into a school you don't pay for with fees.

None of them knew what the 11+ is.

So that's 3 people.

They are all from and live in Bedfordshire. I am from somewhere else in the South East - and where I'm from, if you're bright, you take the 11+.

These aren't people without anything about them either, my H has a professional job. The other two people are fairly well paid

@chestonher your Bedfordshire relatives say high school because they have the 3 school system there - primary, middle, high. It can’t be called secondary school if it’s the third one in the system - that would make no sense!
It’s secondary everywhere else where it’s primary and secondary only (eg move up in year 7, not 9 like in Beds) They aren’t wrong, they just have a different system in that county. I think the IOW has it too but not sure where else.

I went to a grammar in a different county prob about 30 min drive - although this was about 20 years ago!

No they don't. Their area of Bedfordshire is Luton - so just primary and secondary school

Each school has admissions criteria. You can apply to schools over LA borders but priority may be given to certain categories such as faith, siblings, distance.

To add to the confusion our local single sex secondary school is called [town name] Grammar, but isn't a grammar school. It's a non selective state school. No selective grammar schools in this area, although I grew up in an area which did have them.

@chestonher oh ok then - my bad! In which case maybe it’s just a Beds thing because everywhere else there has the 3 school thing?!

You aren't wrong :) it was most of Beds (just not Luton, which is more of a mini city really).

For example I live in Ampthill, Bedfordshire. We are slowly phasing out lower, middle and upper school. My daughter is too young to know what they were and will just attend primary and then secondary if she goes to a comprehensive

If they've not been in your area since the 70s, there's no reason to know about them - or to think it means 'private' as some kept the name.

Not sure what you mean by this. Areas with defined catchments set the catchments (and may subsequently change the catchments) with a view to the local population of the right age, new housing developments etc.

What often happens to houses in catchment areas for desirable schools is that people move into the area to be in the catchment, which means demand for properties and hence their price increases. Basic supply and demand. But the catchment might change over time if, say, a new housing area was built.

Until I moved to Kent I had no idea that they still existed, I thought it was a 1970s thing.

They are all from and live in Bedfordshire.

Well, that explains why they don't know then. I live in Bedfordshire too - there are no grammar schools in the county at all.

Yes you can. Kids get bussed in from London to the grammar schools in Southend. The entrance criteria is higher if you are out of catchment (well that's how it works in Essex) but yes you can still apply and get in.

We have a grammar school where I live, accept it is now a private school (still called The Royal Grammar...) . Historically, of course, it wasn't.

For those who don't know, Bedfordshire doesn't even have a County Council any more. Each district has its own LEA.

Luton is a unitary authority, as is Bedford, and I believe most schools in those areas have moved away from lower, middle and upper, and now just have primary and secondary. Central Bedfordshire for instance still has the lower, middle and upper system, although there do seem to be plans to change that in the future. Much against the wishes of many parents, who think that it is a better system age-wise.

Lower is years R-4, Middle is 5-8 and Upper is years 9 & up. Although it doesn't fit neatly into key stages, the age groups make much more sense. Little kids, big kids, and teenagers.

I didn't grow up here and my kids went to private school that went straight through but even I know what a grammar school is.
I can see if you don't have kids you wouldn't know, but I thought it was part of the fabric of English schooling.

Yes, of course, and I didn't grow up in am area which had them. I suppose they are relatively rare these days.

@mondaytosunday that's the point - it isn't for the majority of England.

I grew up in Northern Ireland where there was a full grammar/secondary modern system. Where I live now, there are no grammar schools and the only mainstream school options are comprehensive or independent. My kids only know what a grammar school is from me telling them about my childhood and from reading/watching Heartstopper which is set in a Kent grammar school.and from having been on holiday with a girl from Kent who had to do 11+ practice papers every morning before being allowed out to play.

I’m 55 and even when I was 11, the 11+ was a thing of the past and there were only Comprehensive schools in our area - Nottingham.

I only found out that grammar schools and the 11+ System still existed in some places when I joined MN 15 years ago and saw people on here discussing the topic.

Sort of, yes. State schools (both primaries, comprehensives and grammars) will all have their own admissions rules. For primaries it will usually mean that places are allocated in order of priority (children with medical needs etc first, then siblings of children already at the school, then places are allocated in order of distance, for religious schools with a religious priority applied also, e.g. baptised children of regular church attenders have priority). In England the majority of primary schools don't have a formal 'catchment' area as such i.e. you don't have to live within a certain radius of the school to apply, but people use the phrase to mean that the school is over subscribed i.e. more people wanted to send their child there than there are places available, and the cut-off for being given a place was X miles away, therefore a radius of X miles is the 'catchment'.

Comps have similar criteria although there may also be a 'feeder' school system where children from XYZ primaries have priority.

Grammars vary and have their own entry criteria, sometimes they do have a formal catchment system i.e. you have to live in certain postcodes or counties to apply, sometimes the only limit is effectively whether you're prepared to travel to them. Sometimes the catchment is set fairly narrowly so fewer children can apply and competition is less fierce, therefore a lower standard is needed to 'pass' the exam and be given entry (you may only need to be of slightly above average academic ability), whereas in London and some other areas catchment areas are wide and there are very many more applicants than places, so talking in 'pass/fail' terms is a bit meaningless, children can score incredibly highly and still miss out on a place (which is why people go mad with the tutoring etc as only a few marks either way can make the difference). All grammar schools will publish their entry processes on their websites or via the LEA, i.e. whether or not they have a catchment area, when and how you apply, what the exam consists of and where you can find past papers, annual numbers of candidates applying and numbers given a place, from this you can work out e.g. did you need to be in the top 50% of applicants, 25%, 10% etc (bearing in mind the field will be self-selecting to a certain extent). I know it's a way off for your DD yet OP but one thing you should never ever do when it comes to schools is believe 'rumours' and chat at the school/nursery gates, the amount of misinformation and frankly bollocks that gets talked when these days, say what you like about our state education system, admissions at least are largely very transparent and above board and not the sort of system you can 'play' in any very nefarious way (I mean, yes you can buy a house for £££ next to an outstanding primary or tutor your child for grammar school entry while still in the womb or whatever), but contrary to what some people would have you believe actual corruption, nepotism or human subjectivity has largely been eliminated as most decisions are made by computers and algorithms...

You want to scream when someone makes passing reference to high school in an area where it's technically more correct to say secondary?

I'm not sure they're the odd ones, tbh

@LemonJuiceFromConcentrate they don't have middle, lower and upper? Just primary and secondary. It's the rest of Bedfordshire (well most areas), with the three tier system. Not them

Yes I went to one, DD took the first part of her 11+ last weekend, the second part is this wekend

They tend to have their own catchment areas. You would have to ask the school

Yes, I went to one in NI where, as pp said, 11+ was the norm in 90s. In Scotland now - where they don't exist.