Is lying in state a closed coffin?

[GreenGreenGrassBlue]

I’m from a country where all our funerals are open coffin so we follow that culture here too and bring the body home for family and friends to visit. I’m assuming it’s a closed coffin due to the number of days for the Queen?

In open coffins not an open coffin

The casket is lead-lined to prevent the penetration of moisture and slow decomposition (old, inaccurate science). From what I can determine, when it is lid is closed, it is also sealed, to make the casket air-tight. It's not vacuum-sealed, so there is still adequate air to enable/allow decomposition. There's a HUGE problem with having an air-tight casket. Based on studies performed at 'The Body Farm' in Tennessee, a body will putrify within a few months, into a noxious goo, instead of remaining intact as desired. Embalming has advanced enough to where bodies that have been exhumed decades after burial are found to be pretty much in the same condition they were in when initially buried! Since every casket is buried inside a concrete vault (Yes, in the ground too), you may as well go for the cheap plywood casket. It's not like the occupant will be driving around town in it like a new Cadillac...

Lying in state is a fancy way of saying "Laying out the body of a dead person", where 'state' means dead. The top of the casket can either be open or closed.

Really interesting about them not looking the same. When my grandmother died (Ireland) it was open casket. Really horrible experience (IMO) all the family sitting round the open casket while other people from the village came and looked at her.
She really didn't look like my grandmother anymore but never made a connection about knowing they are gone. It does make sense though.

I'm a big fan of the Queen but find this quite disrespectful to the 1.36 billion Catholics in the world. To them the pope is very important.

All bodies which are going to be buried, are embalmed. No smell.

GreenGreenGrassBlue

This has been a really interesting thread to read other customs, norms, what people find comfort in and what people haven't.

Agree with some other posters, mumsnet is becoming such a viper pit at times now, I'm sure people set up profiles just to gain some notorioty here as they don't have much going on elsewhere in life, but let them show themselves up.

No they're not, embalming isn't massively common in the UK and only around 50% at most are embalmed. There's no legal requirement for it either unless a body is being repatriated.

That's not the case.

A body which is going to be repatriated to a different country for burial has to be embalmed, by law.

A body which is going to be given an eco-friendly "woodland burial" generally can't be embalmed (because the chemicals will affect the local environment).

Some religions prohibit embalming before burial.

But beyond that there aren't any rules about it or any universal practice. Embalming is often recommended if the funeral isn't going to take place until some time after death, if there's any possibility that family members may want to visit the body in a chapel of rest or elsewhere.

I'm sure I read that after the Queen Mother's lying in state, the Crown Jewellers had to work fast to clean her crown etc ready for the funeral procession as it was filthy. If you think about it, several hundred thousand human beings walking through a confined space over several days are going to generate a lot of dust.

Not true. Embalming is not universal in the UK, and the majority of bodies are just kept in cold storage until the day of the funeral.

In cases such as the Queen though, embalming will have been necessary because obviously the number of journeys to be made and the lying in state before the funeral mean that it will not be kept in cold storage. The coffins of the royals are also lead lined, which helps a lot with preservation and keeps damp out.

Also, embalming is probably necessary because initially at least the Queen will not be buried. I understand her coffin will be placed in a vault at St. George's Chapel, Windsor Castle alongside that of Prince Philip, her late husband.

I love the thought of the dust of the subjects settling upon the crown

You're right, it actually is quite a poetic image.

Once the embalmers are finished their work, there's precious little left to smell. Except formaldhyde.

Yep and her parents and sister too. Philip isn't there yet, he's in a temporary resting place somewhere else in Windsor for now. I expect there is some protocol that he couldn't be laid there until she was.

You can still go and see Lenin's body in Red Square.
I went in 1982 and it's still there 40 years later!

@GreenGreenGrassBlue , what if the person in question dies in a fire or a disfiguring accident? Would your cultures still have an open casket then?

A family friend died in a fire years ago, and I remember the grown ups discussing the need to have a closed coffin and saying it couldn’t be helped though not customary. (This was in the US)

You can still go and see Lenin's body in Red Square.
I went in 1982 and it's still there 40 years later!

Jeremy Bentham has been around longer. But it's not all of him, I believe.

TRIGGER WARNING - SUICIDE & ACCIDENT

I wanted to put a warning but answer your question.

@CornflowerBlue62

my cousin who died from a fall. Yes they put something next to his head to cover the impact.

my relative who hung them selves. Yes they put a scarf around their neck.

incredibly traumatic.

“Helping to prepare the body of a loved one, helping to carry them on their final journey are acts of love and caring, and considered a privilege. And seeing that the body is truly not the person you loved, but only their earthly remains, makes the burial or cremation less horrific. It’s simply laying to rest.”

Couldn't agree more with this, although I recognise it's not for everyone.

My experience of washing and dressing the bodies of one dear friend is that it brought great comfort and yes, we felt privileged to undertake that service.
As pagans, we were able ritualise the process, with candles, incense, chanting and (soft) drumming.
When she was prepared with scented oils, dressed in her robes and ritual jewellery, ready for her journey to the Gods, it felt like completion.

So I don't have any qualms about open coffins, nor do I worry about the conscious motivation of those who would view the dead person. I think that there are unconscious processes at work and that it is healthier to be more open about death.

There was a man in the news about five years ago, Russell Davison, who had kept his wife’s body at home for six days after she died to help him and him himself and his family grieve. I remember thinking at the time how lovely a Segue that sounded, but wondering about the logistics of doing such a thing

I've been to Irish funerals that have been closed and open caskets, this depended on the circumstances for the death and personal preference ie the deceased or family wishes. Sometimes people at the wake have preferred to not see the body, preferring to remember the person as they were. People don't go to wakes to gawp they go to pay their respects and it is part of the mourning process, but each to their own. Unfortunately with mobile phones it is all a bit grubby once people start taking photographs although I've never witnessed this but can understand the rf not wanting that kind of shitshow.
People may find seeing the person without life makes it a little easier to accept the burial process, they are burying the shell, not the person. I lost my father when I was a young teenager and a lovely relative pointed that out to me the day before his funeral, it made such a difference.

I find the traditional 'British' funeral very remote and ritualised in an alien and alienating way.

Like others, my experience was of grounding and comfort in bringing death closer to home. While the body was absent, waiting for a PM, the death felt unreal, and I was in a strange limbo. I didn't really feel in myself until I saw him.

The coffin was simply made, by one of his friends, and decorated by local children. He lay with a nice cloth and flowers and a few significant items. The coffin sat in a domestic space which has been cleared, and people quietly let themselves in and out of to sit vigil.

I spent the wee hours with him, a time when one or other of us was often awake, quietly reading or painting or running a bath, trying not to wake the other. I had some strong sweet black coffee, some poetry, some professional reading he was also interested in. It was a time to be, to think, to feel, to meditate and pray, to cry, to laugh as I caught him up on some happenings he'd missed. We had some words about him leaving me. It was very domestic. It gave me time to absorb that he was gone and to say goodbye to his body.

There was a very unique stillness in the room, like catching the moment between breaths, or as if the waves suddenly paused.

I think it would depend very much on the relationship and the context, but with that person, in that place, at that time, it was right for me.

@Stravaig That sounds so wonderful. Thank you for sharing with us.

There is a real outpouring of emotion at our funerals. It’s not quiet sometimes. It can be very vocal but then calm in prayer. Having the open casket at home can help get that emotion out before the prayers. It’s very hard to put those you love to rest - but when you see what remains is just that, their earthly remains. You can start switching your focus onto their next journey - almost praying for their soul. Supporting their soul. Sending them strength. Sending them love.

I can say a dead body looks empty - life brings so much to a body. Even a sleeping body.