This new gas price proposal is bonkers

[whenwillthemadnessend]

Tying us into a possible 20 year loan at a cost of 90-130 billion with no guarantee of future gas prices and no incentive for people to change behaviour to save gas save money and save the planet

I may be dead in 20 years and my kids will be paying this off for ever plus covid.

It's the worst idea ever!!!!

@Nat6999 there's extra help available, go through the link below with her.

www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/how-to-get-help-if-you-re-struggling-with-your-energy-bills-/

They should cap prices at a low limit of usage for each household so that people are able to keep warm in the winter, but anything over the limit should be uncapped. Let those who live in massive houses with Agas running all day subsidise everyone else.

Even if there is help, I think it will still have limits and I think there is already enough worry over this for people to be making significant lifestyle changes.

When the war in Ukraine started, it certainly gave DH and I food for thought. Realising what was likely to be incoming we took the plunge and got solar panels. In March. Before the VAT change. Before everyone else started to panic and realise about prices. We had been largely sitting on the fence about it previously, and didn't really want to invest the money. Events gave us the imputus to do something about it. We decided to do it straight away to get ahead of the curve as we figured demand would go through the roof.

Locally, i know 3 other households by name who have put up panels in the last 4 months alone. Walking around there are a number of others doing the same.

The thing about this, is once you start to get a critical mass on people taking up something, the industry starts to change and others start to spur others to make changes too. We are the 3rd in our circle of 6 to get them. I wouldn't call ourselves green, but over the last couple of years it's been a topic of conversation and we have realised that it's in our own interests to think about energy and usage. Of the other 3,one made enquiries about panels and was told no and the other 2 sets of couples aren't able to afford at present
. It's been a slow drip drip of social pressure that's ultimately as useful as the economics.

In terms of cutting down actual usage, DH and I have been doing that for a few years for both economic and green reasons. Genuinely there has been something satisfying about comparing our bills with friends. A sort of perverse competitiveness. It is also kinda scary to see how much others are using, put into £££ when you are making minimal changes.

Regardless of what 'fixes' the government makes and how successful they are, this crisis has had the effect of focusing minds. People are thinking and linking the concepts of cost, usage and sustainability. Perhaps for the first time.

Thats likely to be a game hanger in the long run, and force the pace of change much faster than without the crisis.

In an ideal world, perhaps some radical greens would prefer the high prices to force the change faster. Realistically that would also have devastating consequences too.

I don't think there's an ideal solution. I think im for high usage premium rates. But this might be difficult to implement and enforce.

@Thisismynamenow I know there is ongoing research, but more funding should speed it up.
Issues with the materials used in wind turbines are starting to appear, so we need to hurry up to find alternative materials.
Batteries, we need better ones for sure and with less toxic or rare materials.
Same for wave power and tidal.
We do have options, but we are not implementing them.

The "new" government needs pressure from all of us to prepare UK for the future. Fracking or not, fossil fuels will be done and finished not so long down the line.
I believe we still have the 100% renewables target by 2035? We all need to pressure them on this.

It is stupid the IMF was right this intervention is blatant populism there is no reward for doing the right thing like installing insulation or reducing energy use. Some of us who chose to fix and pay early exit fees a year ago because we could analyze the market will be made to pay for those who didn't. Yet again like COVID we make decisions that will disproportionately benefit the elderly yet we pile the debt onto younger people to pay off. It is very unfair people always want jam today without thinking about the long term cost.

For this I had thought we would be paying it off with increased bills over a couple of years rather than tax to younger but need details to confirm.

I would have preferred this kind of acknowledgment for the Covid cost we handed on rather than public pressure to keep endless spending.

But that’s probably down to state of mind over being at risk where demand to do something was endless

@MushMonster there was promises (under Johnson) to get R&D research funding higher, which equates to alot of money once match funded by industry businesses. I guess we will see what happens under Truss!

Yes, business need to be profitable to invest- further many of your private pension schemes will have big investments in these company, these are your investment.

This x 100. It is so accurate and true. The non elderly people should be very angry about this. It is a disgusting policy and should have had much more criticism than it has. We pay 95 billion in interest each year on the national debt it is nearly half the NHS budget. with such short term thinking I'm very close to leaving the UK for America where you have the freedom to make your own decisions and don't have to pay for others. The UK is financially a busted flush now stuck in populism.

They are taxed!

If only people said the same during the pandemic for debt and other reasons

Re pp switch in direction imo we will see accelerated change from this. We are paying higher bills even when prices go down, presumably profits will be invested in renewables as demand is there, and hopefully public mandate for it increases

Although not sure about nimby ism and whether local protests still hamper infrastructure development

And even if you taxed away all their global profits, it still wouldn't cover all the price rises for the UK population, let alone the rest of the world.

People always say 'tax the rich', 'tax the global mega companies' but when you run the numbers, it doesn't free up as much money as people seem to think.

Also if their taxes were reduced, they'd invest less, and there would also be a knock on detriment to the pension funds that hold shares in these companies, which is just about everyone who works in the private sector.

But we do need to change our behaviour.

I have nothing against someone who feels the cold and wants the heating on high.

The point is it's not sustainable to use energy in the way we have been doing without thought though.

If you want to keep warm fine, but there is no reason why you can't think about ways you consume energy and the way your energy is generated around that to decrease / use energy more efficiently too.

Its not an either / or concept.

We should all be turning down the heating a degree (or two) and sticking on an extra layer indoors in winter. Or using a blanket watching TV or sat working from home if we feel the cold. That's not freezing your tits off, it's using a sensible alternative. And we should be driving towards better tech so we use less energy to heat homes. This can be insulation. This can be thinking about what time you close curtains. This can be moving towards more energy self sufficiency / green energy. Like solar on your house if you can afford.

Its also stuff like thinking about switching off lights when you can and when the best time of day is to run high energy appliances like washing machines, dishwashers etc. Picking a better time of day can make our national usage more efficient and reduce wastage. That makes the cost per unit lower overall.

The idea that we should have a family where we all sit in separate rooms, in Tshirts, sticking on the tumbler at peak periods in the middle of winter because we want to is crap. And yes there should be social pressure to say 'no this isn't ok you need to rethink'. That shouldn't mean you have to live in the dark, with ice on the inside of the window, hand washing cloths and dishes in cold water either though.

Its perfectly possible to be thinking about sensible changes that are workable. Stuff like using timers or batch cooking are possible for many high consumers (not all). Stuff like wearing thermals should be more widely encouraged. Because why not?

Honestly, the resistance to even moderate changes is interesting. It smacks of just bloody minded heel digging 'just because I don't want to make an effort'.

Yet that's just kicking the can. We can't go on like we have indefinitely. This is the wake up call.

FreddyHG
I'm very close to leaving the UK for America where you have the freedom to make your own decisions and don't have to pay for others. The UK is financially a busted flush now stuck in populism.

Just take a look at the US debt clock
www.usdebtclock.org/

American government is 30 Trillion in debt with a deficit of 1.45 Trillion. Largest spending is on medicare and social security. The Boomer pensioners take and pass on the cost to the future generation in America too.

True, but there’s a difference between making a good healthy profit and blatant profiteering, the proceeds of which go to the shareholders. There is also the issue that utilities are a vital and necessary purchase. We all need to drink water and heat our homes, we can’t get away with not doing that, it’s not like debating whether to buy another pair of Louboutins or not. And yes, there need to be conversations around sensible usage but we, young and old, shouldn’t be being sacrificed on the altar of pure business greed and the accumulation of windfall profits.

The freedom to make your own decisions - if you have the money to do so. And it takes a lot - and I mean a lot - of money to pay for healthcare, for example.

And can I ask, how do you define elderly and non-elderly? What’s the cut-off point? @FreddyHG

Norway quite nobly at face value realises they have made enormous profits as a country as a result of their oil and gas supplies and is considering an EU price cap voluntarily and the EU is also considering a windfall tax/price cap.

And that in a nutshell is Brexit right there - an impoverished Britain-made oven ready for big business to do what they will with minimal government interference and damn the future or the civil realm. The Tories wants to get the British people to pay for the war with a 'loan'. They truly are a bunch of cunts.

www.ft.com/content/ab469e2d-8e87-44ee-855b-f46b5b2dd17e

Yes I'd agree with the standing charge being reduced as it's the one thing you can't control.

I agree with the OP though - I think people do need to look really really hard at both their home energy and fuel consumption. Capping at today's price cap will do nothing to give people incentives to reduce their consumption. Capping at the October price cap level might (and would be less expensive for the taxpayer). But given people were still leaving their car engines running while stationary when the petrol prices were around £2 a litre, I am not so sure.

I think I would prefer a subsidy for everyone, with more for the disabled and elderly, so everyone can have the minimum and then those who want to wander round in t-shirts or have massive houses will have to take a view.

I read an article the other day by a Paul Johnson who is from some think tank or other and he said that freezing prices is a terrible idea but there isn't really an alternative. Maybe the subsidy idea is better?

And can I ask, how do you define elderly and non-elderly? What’s the cut-off point

I'd base it on retirement age, and give even more to those over 80. And then you'll have people in receipt of disability benefits who would also get more help.

Truss the Terrible is more into fracking than renewables I think
Yes, and use of fossil fuels through expanding oil and gas fields. Apparently a quarter of her campaign funds (£100,000) came from the wife of a former BP executive. www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liz-truss-campaign-donor-bp-b2162606.html

Aside from the environmental angle fracking is simply not going to work on economic or planning grounds in the UK.

Firstly you need a lot more wells than you do for reservoir production (6 to 8 times more wells). Secondly the wells dry up quite fast with a production decline of 10 to 15 percent a year. Meaning that you have to sink even more wells.

Whilst all of this might not be a problem in the wide open spaces of Texas Permian basin or North Dakota, drilling lots of wells and also getting planning permission for this in a much more densely populated UK just doesn't work money or time wise.