I envy people who have Faith

[BlueBloodedBlue]

I don't but it must be a real comfort to believe in a higher power and have something that gives a meaning to everything.

That's it really.

A not so subtle way of saying "I think everybody who has a faith is thick". Nice.

And incidentally, what faith were you referring to OP? It's a very broad term.

Hmm, I don’t recall defending anyone imposing their faith on others. Can you point me to where it is you think I said that, and maybe we can try to hash out the misunderstanding here?

@Vincitveritas there absolutely is an issue around people of faith trying to impose the tenets of their faith on others. The striking down of Roe vs Wade is the most clear cut example of that. The existence of faith schools is another. Religion is fine, but it shouldn't bring societal privilege to anyone. The law should be secular and should advantage no-one on the basis of faith.

I get people telling my kids they are sinful (because they are gay). That isn't acceptable. I think I've done very well remaining polite to these bastards.

The striking down of Roe vs Wade is the most clear cut example of that.

That’s the US Supreme Court saying that states should decide something in a federal system? I’m not American, so if you are I can see why it’s more immediate for you than for me, but I’d say people in various countries being forced to convert at gunpoint or being stoned to death for blasphemy in other countries is probably a more clear cut example of faith being imposed on others.

The existence of faith schools is another.

They exist in the UK because the churches set up free schools before the government did. The monsters, eh?

I get people telling my kids they are sinful (because they are gay). That isn't acceptable. I think I've done very well remaining polite to these bastards.

I agree that isn’t acceptable, and I don’t think you should have to remain particularly polite to people who say that. But I’m sure you can see a difference between “I don’t want religious people telling my kids they’re wrong for their sexuality,” and “I think religious people should just keep their faith to themselves for their own use and not say/do anything religious in public.”

I am a practicing Christian and have a for many years. This does not mean that l will never face any more difficulties but having a faith means that I know that God will never test me beyond that which l can bear. He uses those times to strengthen me. He is God the Father and God my father.

@pointythings I can't understand why people object to faith schools. In the case of the C of E they were set up by the Church to help poor and disadvantaged children, as GoldenOmber said. I don't think teaching children the value of respect, compassion, loving your neighbour as yourself, kindness and generosity is a bad thing myself either.

Faith schools may originally have been set up to provide an education for children who would otherwise not have had access to education, but that noble purpose has been long lost. Faith schools are now used as a proxy for selection by wealth - they tend to have a lower % of pupils on free school meals. That's not acceptable. Furthermore, good education should be accessible to all children, and putting an artificial barrier in the way of that is also not acceptable. Lastly, no school should be allowed to promote any religion. All schools should be secular, with religion taught as 'about' not as 'this is the true faith'. Religion should be the preserve of the home and the church exclusively.

Respect, compassion and loving your neighbour are not values associated exclusively with faith. That is a delusion.

That’s the US Supreme Court saying that states should decide something in a federal system?

you mean allowing states to pass oppressive and dangerous laws using religion as an excuse

All schools should be secular, with religion taught as 'about' not as 'this is the true faith'. Religion should be the preserve of the home and the church exclusively.

Again, for someone who feels strongly that religious people should stop imposing their views on others, you have some quite firm views yourself on how society should be organised around your own preferences.

Personally I don’t mind there being religious schools of religions that I don’t follow or agree with in the country. If the British Humanist Organisation wants to fund and establish schools itself, I’d be fine with that too.

I am a Christian simply because I believe that Christianity is true - because Jesus lived, died and rose again, and these I believe are historical facts. Of course they aren’t ultimately proved in the way that mathematics is provable but then atheism I have always found completely illogical that nothing can make something. I haven’t always been a Christian but something happened which brought me into a faith relationship with Jesus. It is a journey of faith which is not easy as when he is often going against the perceived values and fashions of society - but then it was the same for early Christians in the Roman Empire. You realise that of course not everyone shares your worldview and you respect that fact. And God respects that fact as well and gives us the right to choose.

Well it’s a legislative issue. I do not understand enough about US legislation to say exactly where the line should be drawn between state and federal decisions.

also, if I’m picking out examples from other countries of times when religion is imposed on others, I would personally not start with the US in a world where eg Afghanistan and Iran exist…

It’s always interesting that humanists are very keen to impose their opinions on other people but not very keen on other peoples views being aired. A fact of life.

Sometimes it takes work. It can take a lot of reading, discussion and prayer to get to a place of faith. It doesn’t typically appear out of nowhere.

When I was agnostic, I found the book “The Reason for God” very helpful, by Timothy Keller. I read it several times. Also, various lectures, articles and books by John Lennox. I’m also a giant fan of “The Screwtape Letters” by CS Lewis.

@GoldenOmber I do have strong views. I believe that faith should be a choice people make when they are old enough to do so, not something they should be indoctrinated into. And I fully include atheism in that. So I think children should be taught about belief only, not that any belief is true. Not a deist belief, not an atheist belief. Absolutely equal treatment in schools for all beliefs and none.

What parents do in their own home and within their own faith community is of course up to them, but I did not raise my DDs to believe one thing or another - I just talked about belief and non-belief openly, expressed no opinion that one was superior to another and that they should follow their own hearts.

Too many people believe what they have been taught to believe without thinking about it. And again, I include atheists in that. I was not raised atheist.

but I did not raise my DDs to believe one thing or another - I just talked about belief and non-belief openly, expressed no opinion that one was superior to another and that they should follow their own hearts

But the secular approach you took in raising them is itself a position on religion. You might think it’s the right position or the best position or the closest it’s possible for any human to come to not holding a position, but all the same, it it is a position. Saying “religion isn’t something children should actively participate in” - either explicitly or implicitly - is showing them something about your own values and views regarding religion. Not going to any religious services or being part of any religious community or following any religious practices is something they would see, just as much as my children would see me go to church or pray.

I’m not saying it’s a bad or immoral position. And you of course have every right to hold it, and to expect or hope your children will follow you in it, if that’s what you want. But why would you expect people who hold other positions to agree that yours should be the default way our society is run?

With respect you talk about people ‘following their own hearts’. I believe what I do because I follow my head and come to terms with the reacts about my faith as well as the ‘heart’ bit.

Hardly

I take great comfort in my faith but can understand why people are sceptical. Jesus's commandments are just as relevant today . Free will is offered to us all. I try to love God and my fellow men, do my best with what I've been given and grab joy when it comes my way. As for feeling guilty I know that God forgives and asks me to the same to others.

But why would you expect people who hold other positions to agree that yours should be the default way our society is run?

Because when it comes to state schools, there will be children there from all faiths and none. To ensure equal treatment, no one belief should be promoted as The Truth. If you're going to have religious schools which teach otherwise, they should be private schools.

My DD1 did a full GCSE in RE which was taught in this way. She was lucky enough to have an excellent teacher and there was a great deal of debate among a group of students who were from a range of faith backgrounds - Roman Catholic, C of E, US Evangelical, Quaker, Muslim, Hindu, agnostic, atheist - they had the full package. Nevertheless everyone managed to discuss faith in a respectful way and learn a great deal about human belief and spirituality.

And I don't think children shouldn't participate actively in religion - that is up to the parents, of course. Everyone should be free to attend whatever worship they want within the family. I just don't believe that participation should extend to schools. I would also like to see the 'compulsory act of broadly Christian worship' abolished - the words 'compulsory' and 'worship' should not coexist in the same sentence.

How is that, then? Christianity has been imposed on 100s of millions of people, throughout the world, over many centuries through colonisation, associated religious dogma, resultant in (and mostly unwanted) missionary work, slavery, imperialism and similar. Hundreds of millions forced into Christianity, used as justification for subjugation and servitude. How do humanists, therefore, compare, in anyway at all, in imposing their “opinions” on others, to what has Christianity done?!

Someone once said to me that the opposite to belief is not non-belief it's knowledge. This confused me at first but when I thought about it it's true. If I had solid irrefutable evidence that would be knowledge that God exists. It's thinking there is a god without proof that makes it belief.
If my Friend arranges to meet me at a cafe for a coffee she may forget or something might happen which stops her but I travel there believing she will turn up. Once I see her sitting at a table I no longer believe she will be there because I know, that's knowledge not belief. This is how belief in God works for me.

Because when it comes to state schools, there will be children there from all faiths and none. To ensure equal treatment, no one belief should be promoted as The Truth. If you're going to have religious schools which teach otherwise, they should be private schools.

How do you feel about state schools with multiple chaplains from different faiths? What if every family there is from a particular religious community - would you be ok with it just being one chaplain then? Or do you have a fundamental issue with state schools taking or presenting any particular religious belief beyond a sort of vague secularism? You said upthread I think that your children had gone to a CofE school - so you're ok with religious institutions being involved in and funding schools?

My own kids go to a 'non-denominational' school which, being in Scotland in the area where I live, is by default a Protestant Christian school. I don't particularly like that approach (at least be honest!) and I'm not Protestant myself, but eh, I chose to send them there.

I think there's a fundamental divide here that we're not going to get past in how religious people see religion. If religion is important to you, it's not important in a way that you can just do it privately in your own home and parcel it up into a few hours on a Sunday (or a Friday or a Saturday or whatever) and not really talk about it or do anything noticeable with it in public. It matters for your whole life. It's not a case of "ah well, if my religion has to share space with others then we need to discuss them all only in a very secular distanced way" - there are religious people who would choose to send their kids to the school of a different religion rather than one that took a secular approach.

If your approach is that it's simultaneously sort of harmless and irrelevant to daily life, to the point where it can be tidied away into a few private hours, and also so dangerous that children shouldn't be directly exposed to it, then you're coming from a perspective that not everybody shares. And you have every right to that perspective, but again, people who don't share it aren't going to necessarily agree with you that the entire country should be run that way.

If vid made us in his image then who made god ? I asked a priest this question when I was a kid and his reply was he's always been there

Sorry I meant if God made us in his image