Middle class life

[Blueandsilver]

Not one of those goady or provocative titles. I suppose I see Mumsnet in this bracket although perhaps less so than maybe ten years ago.

I’m just thinking things like Downton Abbey, John Lewis, national trust memberships, NCT classes, Volvos, Labradors.

What else?

I haven’t claimed to be middle class. I’m working class and perfectly secure about it.

It’s programme, not program.

Whatever you say.

Class has nothing to do with how much money you have (or don’t have) it’s more to do with what you’d spend money on.

Are you a slum landlord?

Exactement.

Certainly not saying such things!

Google it or find a book about it - lots and lots of good books about socio-economism out there if you're interested.

I am an economist. I am well aware of socioeconomics. There is research and dat on that.

You are conflated that with this nubulous idea of "class". I'm asking you what you mean by that as it is not the same thing.

Epic reply. 😂

Certainly not saying such things!

I think you've misunderstood. I'm not remotely interested in what anybody might thing about my "class". I find the odd obsession that some people have with this notion fascinating so am interested in hearing them define it, as a purely intellectual exercise stemming from interest in human behaviour and anthropology.

Class is absolutely NOT about money.
Yes absolutely you can be middle or upper class and be poor.
You most certainly can be working clsss and filthy rich and many are.
Only people who don’t understand the class system (which is very much alive and well in the UK) don’t seem to understand this!

@Silverswirl completely agree. DDs school has many rich WC families.
There are a couple of middle class families there and they’re by far the least well off.

I suppose the question to be mused on then is who decides who is included in the class system and why? As an example: I have a friend (living here in London) who is from an affluent family in Sudan. He wouldn’t drive the much-loved by MN old banger, buy secondhand clothes, or choose to have a tiny box set TV rather than a large flatscreen one because in his own country currently those things do not represent something esteem-able which says something about your character of values; they are just things which you have to put up with if you are poor. Another example, my Indian friends own (and wear) a lot of expensive bling. It’s part of their heritage and culture. It’s their tradition.

Therefore, surely a class system based on effectively nullifying the values and status markers of any culture other than white “native” British, for want of a better term, can’t be sustainable in the modern UK? It excludes an increasing number of people here.

Class is absolutely NOT about money.
Yes absolutely you can be middle or upper class and be poor.
You most certainly can be working clsss and filthy rich and many are.
Only people who don’t understand the class system (which is very much alive and well in the UK) don’t seem to understand this!

Please do enlighten us all then. My questions are genuine and I find people with these odd social hangups really fascinating as I've also done a lot of study of psychology and anthropology as well as economics. So I'd love to hear about your ideas about this "system".

It’s gatekeeping, this insistence that it’s all tribal not economic, but also defined by specific purchases, yet also somehow ineffable.

Every thread on this subject is the same. I must be masochistic to read them.

Epic reply. 😂

Thank you, @Jki! 😆

Most people on here learn fairly quickly not to try to patronise people they know nothing about, but maybe this one is new. Or is having a stroke.

It’s gatekeeping, this insistence that it’s all tribal not economic, but also defined by specific purchases, yet also somehow ineffable.

I agree in many ways - it seems like some sort of desperation for social status? I must admit I find it very odd, personally. As many posters have said it is possible to have a huge mix of the so-called "markers" we see here a lot of the time.

I suppose to be totally honest what fascinates me is why is matters to people, why they feel the need to define themselves into these boxes and judge people they meet on the basis of such trivial things as cars or dogs. I'm not criticising - I genuinely find it very interesting and illuminating about something in human nature that drives people to want to feel superior, to define "in groups" and "out groups". There is genetic evidence on this now, too. Some sort of primal thing where people are insecure and feel they need a "tribe". It really interests me what drives a) the urge to view the world in this way, and; b) the criteria they choose to use to do so, but more specifically why they choose those criteria and not a myriad of others.

Anyway, sadly none of them want to seem to answer my questions in any kind of substantive way so I guess I'd better go to bed and knock my haphazard research project on the head for today!

I drive a 2004 Volvo. I paid £1200 for it 5 years ago. It had 32000 mile on the clock at the time and it is still going strong.

My rescue labrador was pts 4 weeks ago. He was 11, his body failed him, his mind was very much still there. It fucking devastated me doing that to him.

I now drive the same Volvo, and I've rescued a staffy X. Paid £0 for him. We've got to have a dog in our lives, our relationship probably wouldn't last without one.

I can spend as much money as I want on treats, holidays and whatever. I choose to have a drink and try and help others by volunteering or donating.

I'm proudly working class 😁

@SheeplessAndCounting i agree it would be very interesting if you could ever get a proper discussion on the subject. It’ll never happen.

It's a shame because it would be absolutely fascinating if the people posting lists of "markers" would explain why they have selected those particular things and not the thousands of other things they could have selected, especially as many seem trivial and not related to values etc. Are they copying those around them and trying to fit in and be accepted themselves into the groups they wish to be accepted into? Or do they genuinely like these arbitrary things? If so, why? Because everyone else they know and feel "similar to" does, that's what they grew up with or a familiar with? (So fear of change or "other", tribe mentality etc). Or is there some other reason? Why do these things matter more than finding people who are kind or have similar interests or moral values?

It is fascinating and the "why?" is a much more interesting question than the "what?". But I agree, sadly today at least no interesting insights were forthcoming!

I'm not sure middle class is that helpful really, but I don't live in the UK.

I associate with tech entrepreneurs, filmmakers, trust-fund artists, serial investors, lawyers, commercial real estate agents, judges, people who work freelance and network with coffee. I get invited to events with the political elite, journos and company directors. I work because I want to, so do most of these folks. Some have second homes in places like Queenstown or Lake Aspen or Biarritz (some eshew them because second homes are considered vulgar in a property crisis), most drive the latest electric cars or consciously choose to ride bikes to work for environmental reasons instead. They climb mountains or do ultra-marathons for fun, or attend short courses at places like Stanford or University of Singapore. They invest a hundred thousand here, a hundred thousand there.

I would describe it as the tech class. In the old days you might call them nouveau riche but these people are not showy. Aside from the ski trips, the latest tech and the merino clothing, you couldn't tell that they were well-off really.

To answer a previous question, why does it matter to me to have these markers?
I think because it defines success. And we all want, in our own way, to be considered successful.

Fucking pine nuts

I understand your first post entirely - thank you for that. It makes sense for bright, successful people to relate to each other and want to spend time together, despite different experiences/ professions etc.

Your second post though: it doesn't work for many of the things other posters have mentioned as "markers". Many of them don't demonstrate any tangible affinity that anything meaningful could be built upon. Buying similar cars or owning the same breed of dog? It's all so trivial that I really struggle to understand why those people feel they are a "group".

I may be middle class but I hate Downton Abbey don't drive a Volvo or have a Labrador
Sooo goady