Grooming gangs/child sexual exploitation - was it going on in your area in the 80s/90s/00s? Did you realise?

[WhichBitchIsWhich]

Prompted by another thread about the Telford sex abuse scandal, I'm wondering how widespread this really was (and maybe still is but today's teenagers aren't likely to be on MN to answer).

I grew up in a small Midlands town and was at secondary school between 1993 and 1997.

It was definitely going on there at the time, though I've only realised the scale and true extent of it in retrospect.

Girls (working class white girls, to be specific) from our school would regularly meet adult men who they called their boyfriends outside the gates at lunchtime and "go for a drive" in their cars, coming back with a McDonald's a while later. They were often collected at the end of the day by the same men. Some of us recognised this as abuse (or at least as not okay). I remember discussing it with friends a few times as a teenager and we certainly knew these men were not "boyfriends" as the girls involved said. It certainly wasn't a secret, the staff knew about it and watched it happen but said or did nothing (I assume, as it carried on year after year).

Most upsetting to me was a deaf girl with learning disabilities who was in my form group, who lived in a local authority children's home in the next town over. She was pregnant at 15 and I still remember someone asking her in class who the father was and her replying "just some fucking [racist four letter word beginning with p and ending with i]" (apologies for even hunting at the word but it's what she said). She didn't come back to school after she reached about 6 months pregnant and I heard from another girl who had lived in the same "care" home that she didn't get to keep her baby.

I realise now as an adult what was almost certainly happening to her

Yes this was going on in our town, but it was Irish travellers doing it. My friend lost her V card to these losers at the age of 12 - they used to regularly hang around our parks and schools in their vans with mattresses in them, in some cases force young girls into them, but it was always seen as the girls fault (mid-90s) and the travellers were pretty much untouchable by the police as they'd just flit in the night. I often wonder if this is the next big scandal to come out.

I am in the North West and I remember a lot of school girls with older white men in cars. One of them did go to prison he got his so called girlfriend pregnant at 15 and that was the proof the police wanted. He used to drive around picking up young girls he took my friend with another girl to his mates in another town. When she basically refused to have sex he left them there. She was about 12 or 13 luckily that ended anymore contact with him and six months later her parents had police and social services at the house. I bet they visited loads of girls houses
We always got offered lifts of groups of Pakistan men in cars but never got in.
I remember my childhood as being very uncomfortable with older men.
I went from dressing like a child to being fully covered because I didn't want to be looked at.
My daughter hates going in certain takeaway shops because she feels really uncomfortable with them all looking.

Sal

I’m sort of place marking to read the full thread later, but it’s often overlooked that Sikh girls (especially those in care) were targets for the predominantly Pakistani grooming gangs in Rotherham et al. They didn’t just think Western/white girls were “slags”. 😟

@anybloodyname Homeschoolers? How did it become known? Just interested as official surveys have found homeschool children to be no more of a risk from this as children in school. Not saying it never happens but just interested that you picked out this group as different/more at risk to 'the norm'.

Hi @KisstheTeapot14

There are a number of home schoolers who receive little or no education

Within my role , it is common for these children to present to us

Children who are genuinely home schooled within a nurturing family environment are no further at risk

@GCHeretic what does that mean? That peoples cultures and religion encourage it? You blaming those things are why people get defensive and do nothing about it. It's not about race or religion it's about men thinking they can get away with it.

@DexterLikesWalks so sorry you had to go through all that.

Sadly in the age of social media, vulnerable kids are putting themselves 'out there' on the web and there are always plenty of men looking for them, then turning up (at care homes etc) in real life. I know this happens here and that care workers do care but sometimes have limited ability to prevent it.

I never had any experience of grooming by men in the community, nor saw it with others of my age (1990s teenagers) though I did have a boyf who was 21 when I was 15 which was fairly normal for my group of friends. He was the opposite - bless him - he was very respectful and protective, always told me not to take up smoking, we didn't sleep together until legal age. Mum was going out of her mind with worry though, asking what does he (21) want with you (15)? and looking at it now as a parent I can see why! I was lucky that he was a genuine nice guy.

Not so lucky that a member of my own family took a 'liking' to me as a young teen, and that was never challenged although he was quite blatant even in company. I was left to deal with that myself and was put in danger when staying with them at weekends. I put a stop to it and warned my siblings to never be alone with him. Later went no contact, but worried if he ever abused others and I had never spoke publicly about it. Did tel my mum and she said 'that never happened'. Very damaging stuff and not what you should have to deal with at 13/14 years of age from the people who are supposed to be looking after you in life.

What worries me now in small country towns is county lines, friend told me its widespread around here (small northern town).

It most definitely not an import. There have always been CSE and sexual exploitation of women by crime gangs. Even back in Victorian times.

The common denominators? Men and a misogynistic police force who don't give a shit about victims.

@TooBigForMyBoots agree. Plenty of underage/child 'prostitutes' (abused children) in Victorian times. Plenty of victim blaming. CSE is found in many forms - individual perpetrators or networks. Watched awful docu by Stacey Dooley about CSE in Philippines. Men from this country flying overseas for this very reason. Mind boggling. I have never understood how men, whether Asian men in Rochdale, the (white) men above, or any colour or creed, in any scenario, can be so selfish as to weigh up wrecking a child's life with their own warped desires and think that the latter is justified.

As for the police and others in power who were complicit, looking the other way or even involved. That is really utterly shameful.

The only difference is the skin colour of the men. So much easier if people can point at a different group and say 'look over there' than accept that it's been going on forever in their own communities.

The unit I worked at decades ago had, amongst others;

Two men from Jersey.
A scout leader.
Two teachers.
Five Priests. (The church was quietly trying to get them out and away from parishes and 'treated for their disease' long before the abuse scandal became public)
One councillor.
A social worker.
Youth workers and volunteers.
Children's home manager.

I would transcribe their sessions. They described networks and associates. Pillars of the Community. People guaranteed to turn a blind eye to reports. People who made complaints go away. Somebody who knew somebody who knew somebody who could help with 'their little trouble' because it wasn't seen as anything more than a shame the law was so awkwardly set at 16 - or deflect away from an investigation getting a bit too close to their own 'friends' with a 'That's racist, you can't say these things about that group' or 'but they have a different culture where it's normal to marry younger' and 'they're teenage girls, you know what they're like'.

And they'd also definitely, were they in that (long closed) unit right now, be saying 'Ah, but look at the Rotherham gangs!' - the gangs that they knew existed because they intersected. They'd also quite likely be musing about how they would have been able to 'rescue' the children if they were allowed round them.

I've not even addressed the boys who were also abused - because that was always seen as different; girls, however, especially teenagers? Completely natural, rock stars did it and passed those 'baby groupies' around, marrying on the 16th birthday, May to December 'Love' stories (more like the first week in February, but, hey, close enough), St Trinians, 15 year olds in the tabloids, awful 70s sitcoms - absolutely normalised.

It's not unusual. It's not an import. It's horrifically, historically absolutely entrenched in male attitudes towards girls and women and people trying to other sexual abuse to cultural/race/religion/ethnicity factors are facilitating its continuation.

Of course it’s not. Pakistani men are one group. That is religious / cultural etc. You can’t ignore that. By ignoring the specific groups and saying all men (which it is) you are hiding the facts. I’ve seen the court records of these cases. There is a commonality which should not be ignored.

West Yorkshire, specifically Bradford/Wakefield/Huddersfield/Dewsbury. Mid 1990s onwards. Gangs of ‘Asian’ adult men waiting outside schools at lunch/end of school to pick up their ‘girlfriends’, i.e. 14 year old victims. So many adults knew, all turned a blind eye. The men were generally Pakistani, ran taxi ranks and takeaways. Everyone knew which taxi drivers would give cheap rides in exchange for God knows what at the end of a night out. Any official attempt to do anything concrete to stop the abuse was blocked in the name of not wanting to damage local race relations. Pakistani Muslim women, particularly around Dewsbury, were very strict. Some of the girls wore burkas and even the smallest were covered up. Walk through Dewsbury market and you’d be catcalled by the men in their western dress though, whistled at and hissed at like you were in Morocco as a white woman. Disgusting 🤮

Was definitely happening in my home town in the north west, obviously we didn’t have a name for it back then. It was Asian men targeting white girls. People knew but never did anything about it. As someone else said the girls involved were seen as tarts, slags who could look after themselves. They were definitely not seen as vulnerable. I was targeted, we moved to a rough estate when I was 13, all the girls were shagging these men in cars all over the place. None of the girls on the estate liked me and I never had anything to do with them. I went to a school in a different town so didn’t have friends to hang out with after school, I think this made me look like an easy target. The men didn’t take too kindly to me telling them to fuck off, I would get abuse everywhere I went, white slag, slut trash, they were going to rape me…. This went on for ages, stupidly I never told my parents. Then one night when I was in my bedroom one of the men was parked at the back of our house with a girl in the car, the girl started shouting abuse up to my room and my DF heard. My DF took a hammer to the car, the cops were called but nothing happened, they actually told my DF well done. The cops knew what was going on but didn’t care or were to afraid to do anything. After my DF took the hammer to the car they stopped parking at the back of our house and I didn’t get as much abuse after that.

West Midlands. Yes, there were Asian men grooming white girls in my school. I do think it's important to talk about race as a factor in this - not that only Asian men can abuse and rape children, but that the authorities gave them a special dispensation to do so by being too afraid of being called racist to speak out. Children died, had their lives ruined. It's wrong to pretend that this is all fine.

No, because I'm from suburbs of SE London.

However, there were older men (late teens/early 20s) mostly white, who were dating younger teenage girls. Not grooming/sexual predator type stuff as far as I know.

The differences between Asian men's organized grooming circuits, Black men's grooming circuits, and white men's grooming circuits, (generally split by class) is how police and other authorities responded in different era's.

The commonality is that the girls (and boys) being used and abused deserved it, and that it is their shame and stigma to be carried, and the damage caused to them and their families is down to them. The other commonality is men.

But what compares to Rotherham and Telford? Can you give an example of where a white or black gang has been abusing and raping girls on the same or similar level?

It's not helpful to obfuscate facts in a situation. We have a problem with Asian child abuse gangs. What's the solution? We need to be able to talk about it. The idea that it's unspeakable to mention these men's ethnicity is a big part of the reason why these rapes and murders have been swept under the carpet.

Absolutely. People are ignoring the sheer scale of this. And the fact that it has happened within the same communities across different parts of the UK. The only other comparison I can think of that is anywhere near this is the Catholic Church, where there clearly was an institutional factor causing the abuse to happen and be hidden. We are all quite happy to identify the religious/ cultural/ institutional factors that allowed paedophilia to continue in the Catholic church, so why are we so afraid to talk of the religious/ cultural/ institutional factors that allowed abuse to happen in these muslim-rural pakistani origin cultures? Just as we are happy to talk about how Catholicism led to the appalling disgusting abuse of babies and unwed mothers in the 'mother and baby homes in Ireland.

We have to be able to identify the roots and facilitators of different types of abuse to tackle them.

Of course the common factor across nearly all sexual abuse is men. But within that, we still need to identify the factors that have worked on and enabled different groups of men to become and continue as abusers. There will be different cultural and social factors. Because that's how humans work!

We are all quite happy to identify the religious/ cultural/ institutional factors that allowed paedophilia to continue in the Catholic church, so why are we so afraid to talk of the religious/ cultural/ institutional factors that allowed abuse to happen in these muslim-rural pakistani origin cultures?

We should. And while we're at it, we should help women in those communities to access educational and health services so they also have some independence to make their own life choices.

My brother is part of/integrated into a largely Pakistani community in the north of England and I'm shocked by some of the behaviour towards both white and Asian women that is considered acceptable (in different ways but equally life-changing). We should be doing better for all these women.

I have lots of Muslim friends, I know the ill treatment of women is not part of their religion. But the issue seems to stem from certain geographies such as parts of Pakistan where women have historically had limited rights and yet it remains unchallenged in the U.K. where we should be fighting for equality for everyone.

It's not either/or.

It is clear that there is a cultural/institutional issue with some men from Muslim/Pakistani backgrounds forming gangs and abusing girls on a widespread basis. No-one is arguing that didn't/ doesn't exist.

There are some cultural factors here about how men and women are viewed and treated, and differences according to whether the girls are white/of the same religion (see comment up thread about how Sikh girls were also targeted and disrespected).

It is also clear that it isn't JUST a problem with men of this background. Patriarchal culture of whatever continent/culture and class enables men to commit these crimes, and enables others to shut their eyes to it. There may just be a different modus operandi. Asian men with taxis and takeaways, Catholic priests abusing victims who were nuns, vulnerable women in the Irish Magdelene Laundries.

It makes the victims feel it is their fault. It's also a complex picture to do with the vulnerabilities of the girls - in power structures where they rank very small, or emotionally - and how these are/were used in a predatory way.

It is also clear that it isn't JUST a problem with men of this background

Literally no-one is saying it is.

What some people are arguing is that their culture/ background had nothing to do with their abusive behaviour. This I disagree profoundly with and believe is demonstrably untrue.

Yes it’s still happening now. With Asian girls they’re less likely to report it due cultural factors and being found out they were doing something they shouldn’t have been. Completely normal to go out with a much older man with fancy car promising to marry you someday but don’t tell anyone as you’d get sent to Pakistan as you’ll definitely get all the blame. So keep it a secret. Consent, healthy relationships isn’t something promoted by families as relationships before marriage is a taboo so they aren’t going to teach the girls about what to do if they find themselves in a situation. The girls know they’re on their own and have to navigate around these ‘relationships’ themselves, have the secret abortions and suffer in silence as nobody is going to sympathise with them or believe them. These men know exactly how to keep them quiet. Sadly I keep seeing the same comments maintaining it’s something Asian men only do to white girls. Almost like Asian girls don’t get abused by these men too. It’s not something mumsnet wants to talk about because everyone wants to believe it only happens to white girls. No wonder Asian girls won’t report, they get backlash from their communities and also the white people as surely the men wouldn’t be doing it to ‘their own’. Hate the way some commenters speak about Asian girls like you’ve got us all in a little box, in our perfect little lives being protected by the men who otherwise are serial abusers. I’ve commented a few times about my experiences and people on here would rather just brush passed and pretend it’s not really a problem. Sorry not their problem. Thankfully there are some Asian womens organisations looking into this but we’ve got a long way to go because there is so much as stake for these girls to go public with this. Many still believe it’s their own fault due to the victim blaming so it takes a lot of education to realise it isn’t our fault it happened.

If anyone thinks I'm trying to obfuscate or say the Asian grooming gangs culture/ background had nothing to do with their abusive behavior then they're wrong. I apologize if I haven't made that clear enough.

Of course their culture and background has lots to do with it. It is a visibly more openly held system of beliefs that say men are entitled to sexually use and abuse children they see as lesser, and the victims were asking for it. Just the same as the rest, but more open and straightforward about it and a bigger pool of men (and sadly some women) happy to agree.

The police response isn't actually hugely different to how they've failed to respond in the past, just another reason given.

No, I don't know the facts and figures for the different groups of various scandals. A great deal was hushed up and brushed under the carpet.
I do know in the 70''s hundreds of girls were used and abused by a low life gang operating quite openly across some areas of London.
Hundreds of boys were also being abused by a prominent set of untouchable people in one of them and a neighboring area. Occasionally the two groups crossed.

Care home abuse you're looking at between 500 to 700 children known about per borough, that's a few thousand put together.

Has the 'sheer scale' of this groups offending finally made this a crime that matters?

I know that a few years ago the figure was 1 in 13 adults had suffered sexual abuse, but that wasn't only at the hands of grooming gangs.

Like others on here I've posted to try to say to younger women, it isn't only you, it isn't only in your times, and it isn't something you can protect your children from by saying keep away from one type of men. People knew then and people knew in the 90's, and nothing or not enough was done.

I agree you need to be able to name a problem to tackle it. What concerns me is when we see this as being a problem with a specific group of men only, and an "imported" problem, aren't we providing cover for all the other groups and those yet to emerge, to carry on?

@TooTiredToSleepRightNow I’m really sorry for your experiences.