12 year old boy and 3 year old girl - what level of supervision?

[Hudsonandco]

I know where I stand on this but I face quite a bit of resistance from relatives which makes me wonder if I’m being paranoid.

12 year old boy is quite immature for his age (not overly clued up on sex and no access at all to unsupervised internet). This is largely because there are some behavioural problems and it’s clear that internet access wouldn’t be a good thing for him. He loves playing with my 3 year old DD. He’s young for his age and can get into all the daft role play. She adores him.

Relatives are very blasé and would happily let them go and play in an upstairs bedroom unsupervised, share a bath together or even have a sleepover in the same room. None of these things happen because I’m completely firm on them not taking place.

Would you relax a little or do you think it would be weird to? And do you think it’s a generational thing that relatives think I’m being paranoid for putting those boundaries in place?

It sounds irrational to allow this. I can't believe some of the comments. I can only think the sole purpose is to make mothers feel they're being ridiculous when it comes to their daughters safety.
A 3 year old is not a baby, or even a toddler anymore. They're a small child. It's absolutely insane how some suggest he just wants to play daddy to baby or whatever. Like they're a tiny baby or something. Even then it would be rather odd. But it certainly becomes more obviously perverse the fact OPS DD is 3.
This is an12 year old boy, who is volatile and desperate to get a small child alone in sleepovers , naked in Bath/ dressing. A 12 year old may enjoy playing hide and seek, reading to them, building towers etc.... Not this. This is super-weird. This is weird for a 12 yesr old, including a 12 year old a few years behind in mental age. He is still in the early stages of puberty. I personally wouldn't allow any further contact between them.

It sounds like the other adults in this situation are unfortunately happy to use your daughter to avoid their own confrontations with the boy. Anything beyond short amounts of supervised play is is completely inappropriate (and I say this as the mother of a boy who may have similar challenges and is of the same age).

The only question is, what is in your daughter's best interests? It isn't playing alone/bathing/sleeping with a 12 year old boy who is so much bigger and stronger.

Your instincts are right. Trust them.

This.

a friend of mine (F) 4 was groomed by an older F cousin at 14 - the family was actively encouraging it as it was lovely to have a big sister.

no to bath and no to sleepover - these things are not needed

From your initial post, I'd have said no to the bath (of course) but that the playing wouldn't concern me. However the later posts mentioning his outbursts would mean I'd restrict any times when they are alone/on another floor. Not neccessarily because I think there is anything untoward in his intentions, just that their relative sizes and strengths are so unbalanced and he has a short fuse.
I wouldn't be encouraging sleepovers.

I have a 12 year old daughter who is mad about her toddler cousins, loves to play with them and read to them etc, however she has never tried to dress them???? Feed them, bath with them (???) have sleepovers especially sharing a bed, if she expressed an interest in any of these things I would be rightly concerned. OP your radar is working fine, this is weird with a capital W, it is not your child's job to fix their child's weirdness.

We had almost an identical situation and us holding our boundaries led to a huge family fall out.
We know we kept our DD safe though, she was just 2 and not really verbal at the time and we had major concerns about the older child's interest in her.

My DC like to sleep in the same (single) bed at 4 and 5, and frequently do so even though they have their own beds (the 4 year old joins the 5 year old at some point during the night).

I would be extremely uncomfortable if I'd allowed the kind of sleepover that has been mentioned, and in the morning found my 3 year old sleeping in the same bed as an unrelated 12 year old boy, doing the same thing my DC do as described above, even though innocent.

Despite your DD being young, you also need to teach her good boundaries and the pants rule etc from an early age, so she recognises the signs of untoward behaviour in an age-appropriate way.

Personally, I think you are absolutely doing the right thing. Your DD should not be treated as some sort of plaything or therapy dog for this boy. Supervised play at all times is the maximum I would allow. I'd also ignore the relative pressuring you over this; in true MN parlance, "No" is a complete sentence.

@GreyTS

It all depends on the context really doesn't it. My DD has been dressed, bathed and had a sleepover with my 12 year old goddaughter when staying over at our house with her family. They both had a lovely time. I don't see why a 12 year old boy might also be interested in helping out in this way.

@TwiggletLover

I don't see why a 12 year old boy might also be interested in helping out in this way.

Really? You don't see that? Many of us can spot a giant red flag when it's waving at us.

@YellowHpok
Why is it a red flag? Just because he is male?
From what the OP has said the child's primary interest is in spending time and playing with her DD. It also isn't clear whether the suggestion of the bath or sleepover came from the child or the wider family.

With my DD that means taking on a caring role and with adults it means regular and unpleasant confrontation. My relatives think the caring side should be encouraged as it will help his confidence.

I'd tell the relatives to make sure their son has a series of full assessments to identify of all his difficulties and to have therapy and any other necessary interventions he needs put into place by medical professionals.

I'd also tell the relatives not to get any ideas about using your child as some sort of therapy doll for him and I'd cut down the time he is spending with your daughter to an absolute minimum, preferably zero. My main concern would be his response to your daughter not wanting to play a game his way. What would his reaction be when he suggests something and she says no?

Just becuse you are family, it doesn't mean you need to be involved with him at all.

If the relatives want to develop his confidence by encourging his caring side, they need to do that with professional help. I wouldn't even suggest geting him a pet because of his actions with adults when he cannot fully control a situation.

I can only think in terms of my own children who are all boys (13, 13 and 10) and I would be fine with everything aside from the bathing.

But my sons are not this boy, and they are not confrontational with adults and don't try and manipulate situations to be alone with a toddler, for any reason at all.

I think you're right to go with your gut feelings here, and I agree with what @BlankTimes said above:
I'd also tell the relatives not to get any ideas about using your child as some sort of therapy doll for him and I'd cut down the time he is spending with your daughter to an absolute minimum, preferably zero. My main concern would be his response to your daughter not wanting to play a game his way. What would his reaction be when he suggests something and she says no?

Stick to your guns as not only are you safeguarding your daughter you are also doing the same for the boy. It sounds like his behaviour and lack of maturity could lead to a horrendous situation if given the opportunity. Hopefully as he matures the risk of this happening will go down.

I taught a 14 year old boy who raped a four year old he was babysitting. He definitely had issues and they should never have been left alone together. Both of them were let down by the adults in their lives.

He sounds immature and more playing with a toddler as an equal which you cannot allow them alone as he is 12.
My son is nearly 12 and he loves playing with kids as he acts like the adult. He would look after them but no way would a sleepover even be considered that's not good

All that bath and sleepover stuff would be a no for me. So too would unsupervised playing. I have six GC, all mostly grown up now. Two of the girls, about 7 and 8 at the time, once persuaded the youngest boy who was about 3 to take a leap off a top bunk bed after telling him he could fly. Thankfully he wasn't injured, only tears, wails and bruises. The attachment of the boy to your DD should be of some concern. That could so easily turn to obsession

Absolutely no bath or sleepovers or unsupervised playing because he is a child so can't be expected to look after a toddler as PP said.

It's very odd for a 12 year old boy to want to be so close to a little girl even if he is immature so what like the brain of a 9 year old? They still wouldn't normally want to play with young ones like that.

From about 7, maybe earlier, my DC was very much against associating with younger children because they felt they are older and cooler!

The relatives don't need to agree with you however I would not let the relatives be in charge of my child because they will allow unsupervised and intimate (changing the child, bathing) activities. The boy needs to learn about boundaries and privacy even if nothing sexual or sinister on his mind, he just can't bathe and dress girls like that. It's also not a good example for the little girl.

I was, to all intents and purposes, a "normal" 12 year old but befriended a two year old boy at that age. I was desperate to spend time with him. I loved playing with him and looking after him and the relationship in my eyes was definitely more friendship than maternal.

Of course I understood that because of his age we weren't going to have the kind of friendship I had with my peers, but I enjoyed hanging out with him.

So I don't think there is necessarily anything nefarious in this.

I cannot imagine a 12 year old (even one who is emotionally more like a 9 year old) wanting to bathe with a toddler. Or any adults who would want to encourage it.

My 12 year old would not be happy about the lack of privacy. He wouldn’t have been happy at 9 either. Especially not with a child who isn’t his sibling.

why would there even be a circumstances where the 12 year old having a bath would be a thing that happened in your house?

The sleepover thing is odd too. Why would the 12 year old want to go to bed at the same time as a toddler?

just weird. And weird that anyone is trying to persuade you it’s not.

Is the 12 year old your nephew?

As an aside I've witnessed a violent young boy take every opportunity to hurt his sister on the sly and my DC.
Very small things all the time.
He was very cunning and mum seemed unaware!
I didn't see them enough to quikly put two and two together.

Trust your gut instinct on this

How did your friendship manifest though? It's not possible for a 2 year old and a 12 year old to be 'friends' on equal terms because of the ages and developmental differences - so what did your friendship look like in real terms?

There mightn't have been anything nefarious in what you've described, but it is extremely odd.

Go with your gut.

Thing is, this 1w yr old with poor impulse control is about to go through puberty. Good boundaries protects them both from inappropriate behaviour.

If he was curious and wanted to look, that wouldn't be great even if it was relatively innocently intended.

I think it's a powder keg that you are right to supervise.

They can be great friends for as long as he wants to, but should be supervised.

Apart from anything else, he may struggle when she stops being compliant with him!