I don't know anyone who's partner treats them well

[fartoobiled]

Male partner.

Either just a partner or husband.

Either all lazy with housework and looking after their own DC, cheaters, or that and mixed in with verbal abuse (that so many normalise), or some even physical abuse, although I don't know of anyone who's being physically abused currently, but know a few who's partner has hit them in the past

I have a friend who's H won't get up with the kids. Says he just can't. Then gets her to pick him up from social events, spends 0 time with his family. Won't engage with the kid activities

My STBXH never took any interest in our DC and just was so flaky. Spoke to me horrifically but was amazingly friendly and polite to everyone else so I looked like a liar for a long time. I kept evidence of it all in the end

Honestly, I really don't know of a single couple who's H treats them kindly and fairly.

I know not all men are bad! Some really good ones out there. I always look in awe when I'm on a day out with DS and see such a heavily involved Dad, having fun?! With his children, who actually speaks properly to his partner

DH is amazing. He looks after me and DS, does loads of house stuff. He also works hard in his job.
Most of my friends have nice husbands too. The main complaint would be too focussed on work, so work life balance off, meaning more mental load and child jobs done by the wife.

That sounds so miserable. I’m shocked that you literally don’t know one competent adult man. My DH is totally competent. Loving dad to all our kids, treats my older two just like his own. Normal adult who does his share of all household tasks. And that’s not even anything to brag about, that’s just him being a regular person.

Is it possible that the ones with shitty husbands just stand out more to you? I can’t believe you don’t know one proper husband.

One thing that pisses me off about much dating advice is that it treats it as a negotiation based on sexual chemistry and having a good time.

It's not. You're supposed to be falling in love with your best friend, who you happen to have sex with. These men always seem to have a cadre of friends who they put first, and in my experience women in shit relationships are also closer to their female friends.

It's a sort of cultural "men from mars, women from venus" mindset that treats men and women as so fundamentally different that they couldn't be best friends.

All the best relationships I know are friends first, partners second, and they can say and work out anything together. It makes me so sad reading MN threads where people's first response should be a mutual conversation.

It is interesting how there seems to be this massive divide.

Those of us who only know generally decent men (and women!) and those like the OP who only know awful men.

There was another thread on this topic recently and I commented that as a child I only knew one rubbish Dad and he really stood out to me. Otherwise all my friends and I had very involved and caring Dads. Do we just gravitate towards what we’ve grown up with? Given my childhood experience there’s just no way I would’ve stayed with a useless man (I dated one once and couldn’t get rid of him fast enough!)

This is probably largely true.
Birds of a feather flock together.
A woman from a home where her dad and brothers were awful will be exposed to their awful friends and will mostly meet awful men in these circles when she starts dating. She’ll be conditioned to that behaviour and, ironically, because of her low self-esteem will be less likely to strike out and search further afield. Many of her female friends will come from similar families and be in the same boat.

Yes there is no denying that male entitlement, misogyny and violence against women are still major issues.

I would not say that all the men I know are like that but frankly a large number are. Including married couples/partners who to the outside world look perfectly fine but where the woman is doing is all the work to keep the relationship going and does everything when it comes to childcare/home stuff while the guy behaves poorly and does not pull his weight.

I finally realised as well that growing up in an abusive household groomed me to have poor self-esteem and attract crappy men like magnet (and always blame myself for not being good enough). No more putting up with it for me.

I would rather be single for the rest of my life at this stage!

I agree with the OP. Sometimes I think there's a decent one, but I'm helped out of the notion with a bit more insight. I know many women who say they their pertner/brother/dad is great, but their bar is lower for men. A lot of men are 'great' in some areas, or at some times, but not in others. There's more inconsistency.

My dad's 'great' now, but punched my mum so hard in the mouth 35 years ago, he knocked half of her teeth out.

My brother is great at sounding respectful and providing for his family, but he's a cheat. Ditto my Dh, minus the middle bit. My Dh is 'great' for looking after his kids so much, but when he's in a bad mood, he's petty and passive aggressive towards them.

My neighbour is great at looking like a great partner at parties and on Facebook, laying down picnic blankets and holding open doors, but when he came over to have us sign some paperwork and part of it was missing, he ordered his wife back up the hill to get it like an authoritarian parent.

My friend's husband is great at doing jobs around the house, but has a separate bank account and doesn't pay a penny towards his four children unless it's for something he can show off on social media.

I could go on and on.

There isn't a single relationship I'm well acquainted with where the male partner is actually 'great'. I just see a spectrum of 'not great', that we're happy - and lucky- to be at the better end of.

Maybe it’s what people can tolerate. I couldn’t cope with a DH who was petty and passive aggressive to my kids - I’d see it as a type of emotional abuse and would leave him. In the same vein I’d struggle to stay friends with someone who allowed their kids to be treated like that so wouldn’t be around them.

I’ve also done programmes for abuse survivors etc, so maybe I’m really good at spotting and removing red flags from my life. It sounds selfish but I couldn’t be friends with someone who stayed in a long term bad relationship. I find those people often want to complain about the relationship (it gets into a cycle of negativity where they will tell you all about it it but refuse to do anything) but it’s not healthy for me to be involved in that so maybe that’s why I don’t know many of those people.

Thinking about my close friend group and family, the good definitely outweigh the bad. My best friends and my DH, none are perfect, of course, but they're all genuinely good men, hard workers, respectful, compassionate, and pull their weight within the household. I have a cousin who's husband is quite controlling, but that's the only relationship I can think of that I think is a bad husband.

It's interesting to see how this plays out across friend groups.

My home friends have all married lovely men, with one exception - and she got deeply involved in a friend group where absolutely shite men are the norm at university.

My uni friends are also all married to lovely men, including a healthy poly relationship. Then a local group of friends in my city are all in somewhat bleh relationships. Not bad, but not especially great either.

Peer influence is huge.

Great post. I'd never thought of it in this way before, but I agree with you. Many women I know who in very strong cliques had unhappy marriages and have split up. They also focus on 'men' and how 'men' are. Happily married friends seem to see their husbands as people, as individuals, not as a separate species, and certainly are close friends as well as partners.

I agree with op. I look around and I don't see any great relationships at all. I've been sat here trying to think of one where they are good friends and make a great team working together but I can't. The men mostly do the bare minimum in all aspects of family life, they are often grumpy and some are just plain aggressive. I've also worked in woman's health in the nhs for many years and from what I've observed I can honestly say that most marriages/relationships are based on the women compromising/sacrificing themselves to keep everything together.

I have known women who have dreadful partners, they all ended up divorced or split up.

In my close friendship group most of us are in our fifties though I have one close friend who is only 41 and one who is 61. All in strong and good relationships as long as they are not hiding something. All my friends have always worked and never been in a weak economic position, two of them earn more than their spouses. I would say none of us have poor self esteem. I can’t see any of us putting up with bad behaviour as we could have walked away without the fear of being really poor. Would have certainly been more hard up and had the struggles that single parents face but it would have been surmountable.

If they are decent, intelligent women then why are they choosing to be with men who deal drugs and treat them like shit? What’s going on there?

I feel the same OP. I've been single for 9 years after ex-h had multiple affairs and finally left. I look at men now with contempt really. I see my friends in shitty sub-standard relationships being treated like doormats or being cheated on but who stay because they have young children or are afraid of being alone.

I'm regularly hit on by married men. It doesn't really instil faith that I'd meet somebody who wouldn't do the same thing. I've also got quite a young SEN child and don't want him affected. It's not worth it and aside from maybe two couples I know, I don't want to have the sort of relationships some of my friends settle for.

I have a few recent examples that many people find innocous as well:

• Visited a friend recently who is pregnant. Doctor told her not to spend too much time on her feet. Her husband made a big show of doing the cooking when I visited them, because she normally does all the cooking. He acted as though he expected some kind of applause for doing something he doesn't normally do. I refuse to praise him, but thanked them both for the meal afterwards as I always do. I also told him to keep it, because it's going to be that much busier when the baby arrives.

• Visited a friend for her birthday. Her boyfriend had his wrist and several fingers in a brace and couldn't work for a couple of weeks. I asked them what happened. Apparently he got so angry at work about something that he punched a hole in the wall in the men's bathroom. I didn't even know how to respond to that.

• I visited another friend who had just moved in with her boyfriend. She can't work due to a disability and seemed to have taken on a more traditional role within the relationship. Heard him frequently joking about her making certain kind of meals and having "dinner on the table by 5 o'clock." I am not sure he was joking, actually, eventhough he said it in a joking way. He is also more than 15 years older than she is.

• Finally, I have a friend whose boyfriends are always "damaged" by previous relationships. It's always the fault of the ex ofcourse. I keep asking her how she thinks he'll talk about her once they break up. Yet, nothing ever changes. Every new boyfriend is exactly like this. I have stopped mentioning it and now try to avoid the topic of her current boyfriend, whoever it it.

I have more examples with aquaintences and family members, but I don't feel like digging all of that up in one go. The list above is depressing enough.

Im' not as cynical as this but I do know what you mean. It's the friend who casually mentioned that she was broke because she'd been paying for all their (private) fertility treatment.... the same friend who once turned up for dinner in a complete flap because she'd had to leave her Dh with her children as the nanny was sick and she knew he wouldn't be able to do the bare minimum.

The friend whose partner has never bothered to work full time hours (on a low wage) and still complains bitterly if she points out he hasn't cleaned a bathroom, vacuumed a floor or prepared a meal in months. Same friend's partner also quite happy to watch her flapping around getting herself and DC ready for school on his day's off because he doesn't see why he should have to get up on a day off....

The mum at school who once brought the DC to an adult-only activity because it turned out her DH wanted to go to gym and while she'd had this planned for months, he wasn't willing to compromise. Same mum regularly employs weekend nannies because she's learnt her Dh - who is a high earner - is completely unwilling to "give up" his free time on weekends. So if she has a commitment, she has to get a nanny (he's fine paying for that. He's a prince).

The woman who told me that when she wanted to take her coil out because it was messing with her body found herself in a protected, weeks-long debate with her DH because he honestly thought that she couldn't do that without his permission.

Like I said, I know my uncle - he's an amazing husband. Otherwise no I don't know anyone

Don't get me wrong, I know men that I think are nice partners and husbands - but I don't know their families or their wives. So I have no idea if they're good life partners as from bitter experience with my own H, someone can appear amazing to other people and then act appallingly at home

Why are so many women putting up with crap relationships should also maybe be the question?
I know a couple of male friends who have been treated awfully by their wifes/ partners as well it can work the other way , although less so
But it will only change if people don't stay on such relationships and demand more
Maybe it is a lot to do with upbringing as you see something as normal if all around you
No relationships are perfect all the tome though , everyone has ups and downs and selfish moments , mills and boon doesn't last a life time
And relationships often need working at , but both partners need to be wiling to do that, you have to get through the bad times as well as the good

@BlingLoving but you pointing out about part time one if that was other way in here they would say how dare your dh question what you have done and demand you work full time ?? So when its the other way why is it ok one way and not the other
Or do people still think the man should always be the provider

The example wasn't a dick because he was part time. He's a dick because he's part time and still does F* all at home or with the DC. I made that very clear.

My husband is lovely. I will not tolerate having an abusive man in my life. I had to learn the hard way though. There are lots of great men out there but you won't meet them if you and those in your circle, are putting up with poor and abusive behaviour. This will be clouding your view.

This is so sad.

I grew up with a dad who adored my mum and treated her accordingly. On my mum's side of the family, her three sisters all married lovely men who worked hard and treated their wives and children very well. One of the marriages ended after their children reached adulthood but it all stayed fairly amicable. Most of my female cousins are also married to decent guys from what I can tell. One in particular is wonderful to my mum (his aunt by marriage) and does all sorts of jobs for her, gives her lifts, picks up shopping etc and is also a carer for his FIL who lives with them. Another male cousin gave up work to be a carer for his wife and their child who has complex needs, but still manages to pitch in and help look after another elderly aunt and do loads of sports coaching with kids. Overall I've grown up seeing what appear to be happy and healthy relationships and a distinct lack of arseholes. I think it has given me a low tolerance for bad behaviour in men because I know they are not just "wired like that" and are capable of being decent human beings.

My own husband is just a lovely guy really. An all round good egg.

However I do see a lot of arseholery from friends' partners and I wonder why on earth they put up with it. One friend has a husband who's always lovely in company but I know he's very prone to mood swings and sulking and won't look after their two boys on his own at all, not even to do bedtime so she can't go out for the evening till they've gone to bed. She doesn't even seem to think this is odd or unreasonable.

My husbands the best. We are very smug.

My husband is lovely - really truly wonderful and we are really happy some 17 years later. Most of my husbands friends are lovely too to their wives - I guess you migrate and befriend people who have the same or similar values to you. However, I did not meet my husband til late 30's - I honestly thought I would never meet "the one" and my god did I go out with some horrors. I put up with soooo much shite in previous relationships. However, all those guys I went out with I always knew were not marriage material or father material, I guess I would have always preferred to be single than do the same thing my mother did. She went through 2 marriages and a long term relationship with really horrible people who didn't add anything tangible to her life.

I didn't get married until I was in my 40's and once we thought about maybe having a family it was too late. I am convinced though that if I had have got married younger to one of the previous boyfriends I would be divorced now.