Manners a thing of the past?

[lechatestsurlemat]

On a crowded train yesterday, hardly any seats. A woman (middle class), probably about 40 grabbed a seat and sat down with her daughter (assuming) about 7/8 on her lap. Next to them, a man about 75/80, standing. No offer to let him have the seat. A few stations on, the person next to them gets off and she plonks her DD down in the now empty seat. A few more stations on and they get off. The oldish man grabs the seats for him and his mate (similar age), so obviously he does want to sit down.

*give up not governing up, stupid phone!

Unfortunately for you this is MN so posters are going to fixate on the middle-class thing rather than address your point.

So many of us have asked about the relevance of the woman being middle class. Should a middle class person know better or have better manners? We don't know!
It may have just been an off the cuff, unrelated observation, which I'm guessing the OP wishes they hadn't included now!

How did you come to that conclusion 🤔 You didn’t give up your seat for reasons that would not have been apparent to others so how do you know she didn’t have her reasons. This is nonsense

I agree with you op - I definitely see the offering of seats less frequently than I used to.

If I'm seated then I'll offer and if I'm standing I'll call out to the carriage in general and will ask anyone more able to stand to give their seat to pregnant women/woman carrying young children/older people. Obviously i check with them first before asking - but I find its easier to ask on behalf of someone else, then expecting them to ask.

Almost 17 years ago, I (very, very obviously) heavily pregnant, gave up my seat for a woman who was in her 80s on the tube. It’s not a new thing. I traveled on the tube at least twice a day and was only offered a seat a couple of times.

what was it that stopped you actually offering to give up your seat? How do you know everyone else wasn’t also thinking about it?
I had done a park run in the morning and walked a few miles in the afternoon. I had been diagnosed with high blood pressure the day before and I thought it best to stay seated, just in case I kealed over.

Okay, so your reasons for not offering your seat would not be visible to anyone else, but it was okay you didn't stand up for the older gentlemen to sit, but it hasn't crossed your mind that the other woman might have a reason that wasn't immediately visible to you

I am another who wants to know what the relevance of this woman's "class" (and how you define that) is to your question.

As to your question about manners being a thing of the past, purely anecdotally I had people stand up for me on the tube 2 times in 2 days this week. I have no visible disability and I don't think I look THAT elderly. I don't live in London and normally don't travel on the tube so have no idea of this is common or not.

I mean I would get up but my sister when she was in the middle of a colitis flare when she was young wouldn't be able to stand for very long, not because she's rude but because she was ill.

People have been whining about manners being a thing of the past for at least two thousand years, OP. It's nonsense. Manners, along with other values, change as societies develop, of course. Manners differ between cultures, too. Even within social groups, opinions on what constitutes good manners vary. This is not new. But humans as an aggregate have changed remarkably little, IMO. There have always been selfish people, kind people, thoughless people, socially awkward people - and people who are given to spying on others and making value judgements without being in possession of all the facts.

I see this a lot and completely agree with you OP. But you will always get people shouting "invisible disabilities", "why didn't anyone else offer their seat". Completely ignoring the fact that the child is at a perfectly able age to stand and it's manners to offer your seat to those more vulnerable. When I was that age my parents taught me manners - to offer seats to those less capable than me. There are way too many entitled parents nowadays on public transport that will put themselves before more vulnerable people. Even when I was heavily pregnant I would offer my seat to elderly or disabled people. Unfortunately not a lot of people are considerate.

my issue here is that you’re clearly of the opinion that this woman should’ve given up her seat, whilst also asserting that you couldn’t possibly have given up yours for a reason that’s not visible. Maybe she has a similar issue?

Honestly I will always bag a seat when travelling with DC. They’re more likely to get squashed when standing and less steady on their feet. I would keep them on my lap if it was busy though. If the older man was visibly doddery I would’ve considered offering- and probably would have- whilst eyeballing the older woman opposite without DC who didn’t offer her own seat. Maybe she was expecting you to offer and is currently ranting about how selfish you are on a separate thread? 😂😂

Err no. Children often don't have great balance and are too small to reach the handle thingies. Why the fuck would you expect a child to stand as opposed to one of the many other adults (not all of whom will have hidden disabilities) who are bound to be on busy public transport. Save your disgust for the actual ignorant fuckers who should know better.

Or when you say "older people" do you actually mean anyone older than a child as opposed to actual old people.. if the former you're batshit crazy and that's so hilariously entitled 😂

I fainted when I was pregnant on a packed train. The only person to offer me a seat was another pregnanct woman.

I just sat on the floor in the middle of the aisle.

Agreed

I'm not sure I buy the "too small to stand" for a child over 5 or 6. There's usually something to hang onto at their level. I'd put an elderly person's needs as greater than my kids having to stand on the train.

We all try to bring our kids up to be unselfish. I expect my kids to stand because it's a sign of respect and empathy for their elders.

The OP still should have offered her seat if it made her that cross though.

If you managed park run and walking for miles, you were capable of giving up your seat for the elderly man. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about class and are using this seat issue as an excuse to criticise someone you perceive to be of a higher social class than yourself.

It’s not new. When I was heavily pregnant 47 years ago a bus driver shouted at bus full of school kids to give me a seat. I guess those kids are nearing 60 now.

Were you sitting? Did you offer your seat? Maybe the child had a disability and couldn't stand. Maybe so did the parent. You can't judge like that.

I agree about setting an example but I don't think the way to do it is acting like I'm entitled to keep my seat while offering the seat of someone much smaller than me

It just comes naturally to me to offer my seat to someone who looks like they need it more and hopefully by modelling that behaviour, it'll become the norm and my child will begin to offer whenever he feels steady enough on his feet. I just think it's hypocritical to expect someone else to give up their seat because you deem them less in need of it. Give up your own seat 🤷🏽‍♀️

Also the bus full of school kids is a different matter to a 5-6 year old on public transport. You can't compare teens and tweens to small children.

I think you’ll find I just did. 🤷‍♀️

And I think you'll find I l've just disagreed with that 🤷🏽‍♀️ what's your point @Blossomtoes?

* I* agree about setting an example but I don't think the way to do it is acting like I'm entitled to keep my seat while offering the seat of someone much smaller than me.

I'm a bit confused by this. I shouldn't expect my kids to stand while I'm seated? I'd absolutely give up my seat if someone else needed it more than me.

If my child wasn't old enough to stand safely, I'd have them on my knee if possible. Not sat in a separate seat if there was an elderly person.

However, my kids are old enough to stand therefore they'd choose to stand if it meant I could sit. I don't think that's wrong, it's just having good manners.

@Samcro, maybe ‘it matters’ because some MNers like to take every opportunity of implying that all MC people are selfish and unpleasant?

Might add that on local buses - which I use a lot - the people I see by far the most often hogging the disabled/elderly/pregnant seats, are young, apparently perfectly fit people, either so glued to their phones that they haven’t noticed some poor old dear standing, or else pretending to be.

Someone will now tell me they all have hidden disabilities. Yes, I dare say, even when they can nip on and off the bus with the agility of a mountain goat.

Everything aside, @lechatestsurlemat
Once the seat beside her became free the woman should have offered it to the standing man before putting her child in it.