Ukraine Invasion: Part 26

[MagicFox]

Here we are, on top of our rock

❤️ Zelensky spoke about the action plan in case of his murder.

In case of a successful assassination attempt on the President of Ukraine and the occupation of Kyiv, not to lose control of the country and lose state institutions, the Ukrainian government has been prepared and divided - Volodymyr Zelensky, Prime Minister and Speaker of Parliament.

"We have a parliamentary-presidential republic. We understood that if there is one or another loss, we will be ready for this process. We divided the Cabinet into two parts. It was two doubles, two Cabinets of Ministers, so that Ukraine could be protected from any, even such, results", - the president said.

I had wondered about this. But I fear that the Western world's united response (we need to keep in mind that China and Africa, much of the ME and part of S America supports Russia; at best they are neutral) ... would falter if Zelenskyy died.

A great deal of the support for Ukraine has depended on -his- charisma and determination.

Bit hope crushing but worth thinking about in terms of post-Putin:

"Meduza, citing sources close to the Kremlin, claims that Russian elites are unhappy with Putin and are making plans for what happens when he leaves – but are also working on annexing parts of Ukraine and a "merger" with Belarus nonetheless"

twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1529013261689143297?s=21&t=zjWKeTvqTBg6AkDYB1cI1g

@RedToothBrush · Today 05:03
Thank you for this post which vividly explains what you describe as ‘the Russian parallel fantasy world’. I think you illustrated it particularly vividly in this paragraph:

To give you a real world example of distortion. I was talking to a Ukrainian today. A member of her family lived in Mariupol. She was there for less than 3 weeks after the war started and then decided to leave. The only way she could get out was to go to Russia. She is now staying with family. Now, for context early on in the invasion, there were news reports here about how the Russians were broadcasting in the area so residents didn't understand what was really happening. They didn't know what was happening in the rest of Ukraine. It was only after people in Mariupol fled to the rest of Ukraine that they found out that Ukraine was holding the line elsewhere for example and that Zelensky was doing a good job. Anyway this woman's relative, was bombed. Her home was damaged. So she knew that Mariupol was under attack. However she has no idea about what has since happened to the city. Speaking to her Ukrainian relative who lived elsewhere in Ukraine, she didn't want to try and go back to elsewhere in the country. She only wanted to go back to Mariupol and check on her house. She thought going back to do this was an option and was completely unaware of how much the situation in the city had deteriorated. She had no concept of what was happening to residents in terms of people disappearing or being harmed by Russian soliders because she had left before this had really begun in the city. She is living in a world where Bucha hasn't happened. She understands that Russia was attacking and killing innocent people but she doesn't fully appreciate Mariupol no longer exists.

A question and a slight derailment if anyone wants to answer:
So many people on this thread seem to be highly politically aware and well informed, but I am not.

I would be interested to know if any other more ignorant people like me, who may be following this thread, feel as I do that the shock of this Russian invasion of Ukraine and all that is entailed has now made you more acutely aware and more alert to our own society and various governments’ use of elision, spin and disinformation? And more aware and horrified by the wrong things we have done in the past, and are doing in the present? (For example is arming Saudi Arabia to commit war crimes on Yemeni civilians - while we also watch adverts for charities asking for money for the civilians who are starving- really ok?)

Yes @ScrollingLeaves, absolutely

I have to agree that it's essential to keep the Russian people and the State separate.

In fact, all the many many Russian peoples given that there are many ethnic groups within the greater Russian country. Yes some of the soldiers have behaved appallingly but they have been actively encouraged to do so. There were some terrible stories coming out from the 2nd Iraq war and from Afghan about US troops too.

Remember too that the US forces are/were known to have a huge problem with sexual assault and if it is/was reported the victim would be victimized further en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_in_the_United_States_military

This is not to say the US army is unusual either. It's a problem of many armies. I'm told that the Scandanavian / UK forces are better than most, but even they are not perfect.

Regarding ordinary Russians supporting the war .. yeah. Some will genuinely support it, most will be brainwashed.

Remember too that the US forces are/were known to have a huge problem with sexual assault and if it is/was reported the victim would be victimized further en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_in_the_United_States_military

Huge problem yes, needs sorting out yes ( and to some extent looking at recent Courts martials there is a problem with some in the UK Armed Forces), however I hope we're not going to see serious claims being that there's complete equivalence between Russian and UK/US forces when it comes to the treatment of the Civpop at large in conflict areas..

@TargusEasting · Today 08:28
Planned deforestation of Ukraine.

That is monstrous.

Made me feel sick too. As does the planned destruction of the forests.

They have no conscience or sense of responsibility -look what they deliberately did to the Aral Sea
Wikipedia link for those who don't know

however I hope we're not going to see serious claims being that there's complete equivalence between Russian and UK/US forces when it comes to the treatment of the Civpop at large in conflict areas..

Certainly not, but I think a more nuanced view is appropriate than all Russians are bad and in the light of the horrors coming out of Ukraine and out of Syria and the horrors of Chechnya, we can tip over into that a bit. (Older people when I grew up could still not talk to or learn German because they'd been taught they were all terrible people.)

I"m more than well aware of the irony of this but I think that it's the Russian govt who push the line that Ukrainians are degenerate nazi animals who crucify children. I don't ever want us to go down that road unless there is very firm proof of such things happening, in which case I think we do need to acknowledge it.

It's difficult because we do have to acknowledge that Stalin deported mass populations, destroyed millions of his own people and Russian army behaviour after WW2 was truly terrible. The fact seems to be that there is a persistant trait in the Russian govt's character that allows and (now) encourages appalling behaviour. But we need to avoid black and white thinking.

I was horrified by both, the Russian government/some of the army don't seem to care who or what they destroy. The world is a worse place with such destructive forces.

Regarding domestic violence, I remember reading an article on a Ukrainian news site about a woman who had been murdered by her husband, her husband worked in the organisation of Kadyrov (the axis of evil garden gnome mentioned on earlier threads) and there was a link to a video where Kadyrov normalised domestic violence as part of a relationship.

@Ijsbear · Today 11:27
It's difficult because we do have to acknowledge that Stalin deported mass populations, destroyed millions of his own people and Russian army behaviour after WW2 was truly terrible. The fact seems to be that there is a persistant trait in the Russian govt's character that allows and (now) encourages appalling behaviour. But we need to avoid black and white thinking.

Yes, you are right about black and white thinking. (After your previous post I just quickly browsed through some Western war crimes.Ugh.) But also right I think, as you say, that the Russian government’s character allows and (now) encourages appalling behaviour.

I would be interested to know if any other more ignorant people like me, who may be following this thread, feel as I do that the shock of this Russian invasion of Ukraine and all that is entailed has now made you more acutely aware and more alert to our own society and various governments’ use of elision, spin and disinformation? And more aware and horrified by the wrong things we have done in the past, and are doing in the present? (For example is arming Saudi Arabia to commit war crimes on Yemeni civilians - while we also watch adverts for charities asking for money for the civilians who are starving- really ok?)

@ScrollingLeaves

Again, not the thread to discuss Yemen, but note the assertion here - Houthi Yemenites good, Saudi Arabians bad. Whereas a lot of the sources i have seen would be closer to - Saudi Arabians pretty awful but nothing near as horrible as the Houthis who have absolutely no concern whatesoever for any civilians in any situations. Ie Houthis make the Taliban (and Russians) look good.

If you think the second narrative is more correct, then arming the Saudis to fight the Houthis might be the better of the two evils (assuming you are not prepared to have Britain go in as world policeman and sort everything out)?

So whose side are you believing, and where did you get your source material for the bald statement you posted without any qualms?

The impact on Ukrainian farmers and agriculture, this farmer near Kyiv lost his farm and his son in law was killed in action.

‘My house, the barns, I lost everything’: the Ukrainian farmers devastated by war

It has a photo of the skeletons of his cows, the other images are of the farm and fields.

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/24/ukrainian-farmers-war-food-insecurity-famine

Re: desperately poor sanitary conditions in modern Russia, this article from only 2015 bears this out. For us it would be unthinkable that the all the occupants of a block of flats have an outdoor cess pit with boards over it as a lavatory.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3062612/Man-drowns-faeces-falling-Russian-cesspit-left-12-hours-friend-assumed-d-able-climb-himself.html

@HappyWinter IIRC Putin has encouraged hate for homosexuals and has eroded laws against domestic violence (can't remember for sure, not got time to check)

On the encouraging side, pic from either Irpin or Bucha about returning children

Whilst I do distinguish between the Russian Government/people and the brainwashing they receive, culture also plays a large part. We can't just say 'Russia is bad because they are unfortunate enough to have bad people in charge," we also need to acknowledge the culture and system that keeps putting ruthless people in charge. The Russian mindset has not substantially changed since Stalin's time, by the look of it. Whereas the core European countries all saw complete regime changes. Spain and Italy came out of dictatorships. Germany had to be rebuilt from rubble. The UK kept our type of government (for better and worse, given the same damn families own everything), but we also kept the law courts and free press. For better or for worse, we do question our rulers.

Whoever follows Putin will be in the same mould or worse. There is no internal or external pressure for them to change. For that reason alone, we need to be vigilant and keep the sanctions up.

Just listening to Ukrainecast from today and they’re talking about Severodonetsk and the fact that Russia want to make it a second Mariupol. Heartbreaking, and still so many civilians there.

Whilst I do distinguish between the Russian Government/people and the brainwashing they receive, culture also plays a large part. We can't just say 'Russia is bad because they are unfortunate enough to have bad people in charge," we also need to acknowledge the culture and system that keeps putting ruthless people in charge. The Russian mindset has not substantially changed since Stalin's time, by the look of it.

I'm struggling with this because there's some truth in this. The culture produced Putin, who then went about the job of destroying organisational integrity.

Perhas it's a case that if Russia had received the aid that Germany did after WW2, then he and many many other ruthless people might have grown up with a less cold, dog-eat-dog, morally bankrupt, cruel outlook.

His own childhood seems to have been terrible. Children who grow up in love-filled households and given time, healthy boundaries and are taught to be aware of other people's needs ... they generally grow up much more socialised and less inclined to see the world / other people as only to be conquered.

The majority of Russians appear to behind Putin and the invasion, thats all that matters to me... the hows and whys are for after the war.

Russia is an extremely wealthy country, huge resources and a ready and willing market in the rest of the world.... they have received trillions in trade, even during the Soviet era.

I'm at a loss as to why anyone seeks to understand Putin or his childhood, the sooner he is in the ground the better.

Might sound harsh but i have not a shred of compassion for the Russian people.

I suspect that the morally bankrupt outlook dates back to the Soviet era. Soviet governance was utterly ruthless, in a country with no history of democracy. DH used to work with Russians who had grown up under communism and says that they regarded rules as there to be broken.

Might sound harsh but i have not a shred of compassion for the Russian people.

I think that sounds like a great recipe for demonisation - exactly what the Russians are doing to the Ukrainians.

If you can't understand why people like Putin develop you can't do anything to even try to prevent future ones developing.

https://www.youtube.com/c/skazhigordeevoy

This is really good channel in Russian. Most of the videos have subtitles.

No plans for the UK to send Warships to the Black Sea to help ease food supply issues due to blockages in Odesa. (Source BBC live feed)

I wonder if at least this they could put under the United Nations - anybody know what the rules are, and whether it could be voted on by the general assembly rather than just the security council? ie a UN peacekeeping force to transport grain? Or does even that need to go to the security council? Surely there would be a majority for grain transport to the third world.