Ukraine Invasion: Part 26

[MagicFox]

Here we are, on top of our rock

There is a song by Al Stewart called "Joe the Georgian" which puts the feelings of many people rather well. I don't know if I am still allowed links on the new board, but in case, here it is:

I hope he likes the next few million years.

It would not be a surprise and would be a timely reflection of the reason why some countries are calling on Russia to be regarded as a state sponsor of terrorism.

Sorry; the song: Stalin, Putin, what's the difference?

Would Russia really....

...enable Syria to use chemical weapons on civilians?
...see civilians as legitimate targets?
...deliberately bomb shelters marked with the word 'children'?
...encircle a city and starve its inhabitants so they drink water out of radiators or puddles?
...bomb a whole region into the stone age?
...lie to its own soliders about where they were going?
...shoot its own soilders if they are wounded / refused to do something?
...order its soliders to go to Chornobaivka? Again?
...deliberately target medics?
...deport people from their homeland against their will?
...use concerntration camps?
...torture?
...use rape as a weapon of terror? And then give the battallion responsible for this, an award? And then send them back to the front to kill as many of them as possible?
...invade Ukraine in the first place?

I think we have to stop asking 'would Russia really' and replaced it with 'ffs, if its barbaric the Russians will do it if it suits them and their interests'. And then make it not suit them and their interests...

Yes, I can see why.

It goes further though. The Russian state does not just sponsor terrorism. It IS a terrorist.

Exactly my point - withholding food supplies is terrorism against the world. Blinken et al are generally ahead of the game and this is why he said it. In a short while, with hindsight, it will make sense to the world.

@RedToothBrush i suspect you wanted to go on and on…

…Chemical weapons in Salisbury
…Katyn Massacre
…Gulags

Different times, similar culture.

I hope he likes the next few million years.

AskingQuestionsAllthetime, if only bad people meet their fate in hell. It is a nice thought.

Holodomor...

Sharp intake of breath here ... I don't feel comfortable with equating the Russian state with the Russian people.

Putin, I hate even using his name, he doesn't deserve one, in spite of his declarations of love for "Russia" treats Russians as badly as he treats everyone else.

I'm not convinced that 140,000,000 of them, oblivious to the reality of the rest of the world, shitting in huts at the end of their gardens, if they're lucky, really have very different priorities to the rest of us.

Along with about 50% of the planet, they've had really bad geographical luck

I think there is something of a problem with this. Not because Russian people are bad. I don't believe this. (see my first few posts on this thread about most people being inheritantly good). The problem is the Russian state control information and this in turn controls the Russian people. There is also the problem of extreme poverty which then normalises crime, and often violent crime, simply so people can survive day to day in many parts of provincial Russia. Then you have certain attitudes which we would find intolerable. For example that a wife must obey her husband and how socially acceptable domestic abuse is because the law often allows for it or excuses it. The whole attitude of 'she deserved it' or 'she made me do it'. Culturally things are ingrained into Russian society because of the Russian state and how it values (or more precisely doesn't value) its citizens.

Also don't under estimate lack of access to knowledge. I believe that 20% of internet users in Russia now use a VPN. Thats a large percentage. However you also need to put into context how many people don’t have access to the internet at all. (The lack of access to toilets, gas and electric in rural areas shines a light on this). State news therefore is their window on the world.

To give you a real world example of distortion. I was talking to a Ukrainian today. A member of her family lived in Mariupol. She was there for less than 3 weeks after the war started and then decided to leave. The only way she could get out was to go to Russia. She is now staying with family. Now, for context early on in the invasion, there were news reports here about how the Russians were broadcasting in the area so residents didn't understand what was really happening. They didn't know what was happening in the rest of Ukraine. It was only after people in Mariupol fled to the rest of Ukraine that they found out that Ukraine was holding the line elsewhere for example and that Zelensky was doing a good job. Anyway this woman's relative, was bombed. Her home was damaged. So she knew that Mariupol was under attack. However she has no idea about what has since happened to the city. Speaking to her Ukrainian relative who lived elsewhere in Ukraine, she didn't want to try and go back to elsewhere in the country. She only wanted to go back to Mariupol and check on her house. She thought going back to do this was an option and was completely unaware of how much the situation in the city had deteriorated. She had no concept of what was happening to residents in terms of people disappearing or being harmed by Russian soliders because she had left before this had really begun in the city. She is living in a world where Bucha hasn't happened. She understands that Russia was attacking and killing innocent people but she doesn't fully appreciate Mariupol no longer exists.

Now imagine you were Russian and lived into the bubble of Russian state media which tells you that Ukraine was going to attack Russia and was harming Russian citizens and speakers and Russia was attacking honourably to defend itself from risk. Russia is liberating oppressed people rather than raping and pillaging. Thats something that Americans soliders do.

Its a parallel fantasy world which is fully emersive. Russia is the good guy and culturally is acting within its socially accepted and normalised value system.

Its not that people are bad. They are brainwashed.

What the State does has to be supported by the people even within an authoritarian dictatorship. Sufficient numbers have to be willing to obey and give their consent to the narrative of the story they are told. The Russian state would not hide crimes if it thought it didn't need their veneer of respectability to hide behind.

The State will do whatever it wants if it views it as in its interests and furthering its ambition.

Indeed, in terms of the above question of 'Russia wouldn't really do that', and my point about it doing anything no matter how reprehensible, if it wants and believes its of benefit to the State Igive you the following tweet

Julia Davis AT juliadavisnews
Appearing on Russian state TV, head of RT Margarita Simonyan explained why Russia isn't nuking Ukraine: not because it's wrong, but because it's not practical. They want those territories usable and don't want to kill all inhabitants—only some of them—and need to sort them first.

Usefulness comes before morality for the Russian State. This in turn shapes how Russians see their own world because of the narrative that Russia creates.

deportation of Crimean tatars in 1948

Thank you.
I repeatedly, stupidly, forget how much of Russia is informed only by state tv.
I have no excuse, considering how much of the UK vote is controlled by the gutter press.
I was trying to understand the posts above about opening the ports for export of grain and other food.
Surely now this must happen. I can understand and agree with not interfering on Ukrainian ground for fear of nuclear escalation although in retrospect it still feels like we should somehow have closed the skies, as they asked. But now surely we must open the ports.

Earlier, it seemed that Putin was in charge, every one, to the very top was so afraid of him they dare not tell him the truth. `Now it seems that he is not the only one, and that in fact, there are worse than him ready to take power.

I've just read this Washington Post article. www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2022/05/23/west-ukraine-russia-must-pay-not-impose-ceasefire-war/ and I agree.

@RedToothBrush - you’re spot on!

except for “usefulness comes before morality”…. I’m not so sure it’s true where Ukrainian lands are concerned. Since Crimea was annexed and Donetsk/ Luhansk occupied - what has Russia done to make these territories “useful”?

The industries in the East were completely destroyed - coal mines flooded, airport wiped out, etc etc. Crimea used to be a prime holiday destination, I don’t see that it has bee turned into anything better than it was before, quite the opposite from what I know and most Russians would still prefer to holiday abroad than in Crimea…

maybe I am approaching this comment from a slightly different angle, as in usefulness for the benefit of the people, rather than usefulness from a strategic/ geopolitics point of view… either way it’s utterly depressing that everything the Russians have taken from Ukraine since 2013 has been turned to waste rather than invested in and flourished.

@Mb76
maybe I am approaching this comment from a slightly different angle, as in usefulness for the benefit of the people, rather than usefulness from a strategic/ geopolitics point of view… either way it’s utterly depressing that everything the Russians have taken from Ukraine since 2013 has been turned to waste rather than invested in and flourished.

I wonder if this is because it has all been in the hands of jostling, thuggish, mafia-like war lords like ‘Motorola’ whom Putin recently posthumously decorated? (The person whom RedToothBrush or MMBaranova posted about last week.) They would have just wanted the money and power.

Ukraine is not useful. It shows the threat of democracy. Therefore Ukraine is useful as a weapon of terror and control to further the aims of the leadership

Good post on 'parallel fantasy' RedToothBrush.

I'm standing in for a colleague in Slovakia for almost all of June and am making things are in order in the UK at the moment. It will be interesting to be in a country with a (small) border with Ukraine. I might however step back from the news for a bit as it can be debilitating.

What I noticed in the background yesterday was a lot of images of prisoners from Mariupol still being circulated in Russian media and discussion over who had jurisdiction over them. Consensus? The DNR statelet.

This Russian blog post was an interesting glimpse of someone's thought processes, asking why/to what end?

ipaat.livejournal.com/377229.html

.. making sure things are in order...

An Izvestia correspondent reports from the ground and from the alleged underground command post (lower video) at the Mariupol steel plant here.

iz.ru/1338992/2022-05-24/voenkor-izvestii-pokazal-byvshii-ukrepraion-boevikov-na-azovstali

Planned deforestation of Ukraine.

Here

I'd have thought that IF (and its a big IF) the 'West seeks to open up any ports in the BlackSea, its obvious the Russians will not agree, so any force doing so will need to be very powerful and with air cover, in order to deter any Russian retaliation, so that does indeed mean being prepared to take on the Russian navy.

That rules out a small force of developing countries navies.

Whats the alternative? the destabilisation of multiple countries, coup's, civil wars, more fleeing into Europe/surrounding countries.

whilst we may not like it, the BS has to be reopened & all that entails, esp if this war (as it looks likely) goes on for months/years.

I see Ukraine is thanking the Danish for supplying them with Harpoon anti ship missile unit, that hasn't been done with no input from NATO/US, dependent on the variant, has a range of almost 300km.

Key Takeaways

Russian nationalist figures (including veterans and military commentators) are increasingly criticizing the failures of Russia’s “special military operation” in Ukraine and are calling for further mobilization that the Kremlin likely remains unwilling and unable to pursue in the short term.

Russian forces around Izyum increased their tempo of air and artillery strikes and likely intend to attempt to resume stalled offensive operations in the coming days.

Russian operations to encircle Severodonetsk made minor gains in the past 24 hours, driving north through Zolote. Fighting is ongoing in Lyman (north of Severodonetsk) as Russian forces attempt to cut off Ukrainian supply lines

Russian forces will likely make further minor gains west of Popasna in the near future but are unlikely to be able to quickly seize Bakhmut.

The Ukrainian counteroffensive northeast of Kharkiv continues to threaten Russian positions and is forcing Russia to pull units from ongoing offensive operations in eastern Ukraine to shore up their defensive positions near Vovchansk.

+++

‼️Volodymyr Zelensky: In the Donbass, the Russian military has 20 times more equipment than the Ukrainian military

+++

The Kyiv Independent, [24/05/2022 01:10]
⚡️ Kuleba: 580 international companies still operating in Russia.

⚡️ Russian forces sets up command centers in Kherson, Zaporizhzhia oblasts.
In an attempt to further control the local population, 19 Russian command centers have been established, said the spokesperson for Zaporizhzhia Regional Military Administration, Ivan Ariefiev.

⚡️ Ukraine’s Military: Russian troops send evacuating civilians down mined road, shoot survivors.

⚡️ Microsoft to assist Ukraine in documenting Russia’s war crimes. [which system does Russian computing use?]

⚡️ CNN: Satellite images appear to show Russian ships loading Ukrainian grain in Crimea.

The Kyiv Independent, [24/05/2022 07:59]
⚡️Russia positions Iskander-M missiles in Belarus, 50 kilometers from Ukrainian border.The threat of missile and airstrikes on Ukraine launched from Belarusian territory is growing, Ukraine’s military warns. Ukraine’s Armed Forces also reported on May 24 that Russia is strengthening its positions at the Ukraine-Russia border.

+++

The Russian losses report that extra plane down, now.

Zelenskyy said that Ukr is losing about 100 military personnel a day now. Russian losses seem to be about the same or slightly higher.

+++

⚡️UK Intelligence: Russia capturing Sievierodonetsk ‘pocket’ would result in whole of Luhansk Oblast under Russian occupation.

+++

▪️In the Kharkiv region, the enemy is trying to hold and improve their tactical position.

▪️The attack in the east of Ukraine does not stop. The most active fighting is now going on there. Particularly, near Lysychansk and Sieverodonetsk.

▪️President of Ukraine Volodymyr Zelensky said that the coming weeks of the war will be very difficult:

▪️"The Russian military is trying very hard to show that they allegedly will not give up the captured areas of the Kharkiv region, they will not give up the Kherson region, the occupied territory of the Zaporizhzhya region and Donbass. Somewhere they are advancing, where they are pulling up reserves, where they are trying to strengthen their positions. In the coming weeks, the wars will be difficult, and we must be aware of this."

+++

In the southern Ukraine, Russians sent civilian cars down a minefield and shot dead survivors.

Operational Command "Pivden'" notes that they found several civilian cars with mutilated and shot bodies. Damage to equipment indicates that before that, the car was blown up.

The survivors were shot dead by the Russian military.

Among the dead are two children aged 6 and 10.

+++

⚡️The UK and US are looking for an alternative to GPS, that is independent of satellite data. The reason is - the threat from Russia.

[ The Russians have been consistently attacking the GPS system ]

Reading about the shooting of the civilians including children in their cars makes me sick. It's unbearable.

Re the deforestation : why hasn't there been more of a global outcry/coalition about the effect Russia is having on the planet ie about climate change. Surely this is where all interests converge. Or have I missed it/bring naive?

Regarding ordinary Russians views and their brainwashing by the State. They are taught from a young age in school (at least those of a certain age) not to discuss or question the government's decisions.
yle.fi/news/3-12457532
Meanwhile, pensioner Svetlana Arkadjevna said she was taught in school that people's opinions about the government should not be discussed. "I don't think we should get involved in politics," she said, adding that citizens should support the position of the government. This is also the case with Sweden and Finland's Nato issue," she said. "Our government has said it is against it. I support them," Arkadjevna said, adding that she understands that Turkey is also displeased about Finland and Sweden's Nato aspirations.

In the article there's also a picture of a young man, someone in the age group most likely to have access to information and news from outside Russia, and he's there wearing a Z badge, very clearly supporting the war.

The huge issue with climate change and Russia is melting permafrost and out of control fires, not timber extraction in Ukraine, which is balanced by the fact the Russians have little to no market for their former lucrative larch business in Siberia.

If Putin is supposed to be prepared to use Nukes, i don't think he is worried about a 3' rise in global temperatures.

We need to stop Russian aggression and atm we are just pussy footing around.

I didn't mean from Russia's perspective I meant a global response, a coming together of those that are worried about the climate emergency as a means to put pressure on Russia / increase its pariah status. Russia's allies have a stake in the fate of the planet too