What does job centre/society actually expect this woman to do?

[steppemum]

I support a lady (friendship through a charity) I'll change some details to make it less identifiable.

She has a son aged 5 and in school and so the job centre are giving her a lot of hassle to get into work. But I just cannot see how she is supposed to do this:

• she is a single mum. Her partner is not son's dad and doesn't live with her.


• she lives on a large council estate out of town. Very little work on the estate. 20 minute bus ride into town. Some work in town, mostly in shops (which I doubt she would get, she's not likely to get a customer facing job) most work is then a further 20 minutes on the bus from the bus station in town.


• there is no breakfast club or after school club, or holiday clubs at the school


• there are no childminders on the estate. The closest ones are about 1 mile away, and don't do school drop offs or pick ups


• she does have local family, but they are not willing to do any childcare, either before/after school, or in the holidays.


• she is only likely to get a minimum wage job as she has no qualifications.

So, she could only work day time, from about 9:30 - 2:00 in order to do school run, no weekends and she has no-one to look after her son in the holidays.

Job centre has told her she is being too fussy and she must be more flexible with timings.

Am I missing something here? I just don't see HOW she can get a job! She would like to work actually, but is also pretty scared about ending up with less money.

Looking for full time work has been a condition of claiming Unemployment Benefit/JSA/UC for donkeys years.

As a PP said it seems like she is just dismissing everything without even looking into it properly. She does need to put some effort into this and try to come up with solutions rather than just seeing the problems.

Yep. Some of them are grossly out of touch and very privileged.

With the updates some things are clearly off the table, but there are basic ways to improve the situation.

• improve literacy and numeracy through free online courses taken at a local library during school hours.
• talk to neighbours, given what we’ve learned about the local area, to see if another mum who stays at home with her own child would be willing to take the OP’s child after school or before, depending on possible shifts in care work (which sounds like the most likely prospect for a job for the OP’s friend).
• find charities which are able to provide support or training for general life skills.
• explore potential diagnoses for learning difficulties or disabilities which would unlock further help or funding.

The point is that almost any circumstances can be improved, if you find the right way.

@Thesefeetaremadeforwalking he’s dead.

OP, lunch assistant in school?

If she is looking for something maybe she can do something from home ?
A women I knew from playgroup days used to assemble boxes at home which were dropped off and picked up from her address, not sure how many of these sort of jobs there would be and pay would be low.
someone else I know did sewing from home.

When I tried to explain to the JC I had a court order to adhere to she told me to just ignore it and get a job.
Imagine?
And starting up a cleaning business want difficult
. I left school with zero qualifications.. And still have none.

Can you say more on what you include demanding work environment?

ie I agree many places would not be possible but in a very low stress, low public involvement, low need for literacy environment would that be doable

Loopyloopy - she may not meet the diagnostic criteria, but it needs to be investigated - . Matbe it has in the past but if she was sweet and didnt cause trouble at school, she might have been overlooked and asd is very often missed in girls.

Has she got SEN ? If so has she got capacity to work ?

I agree that so many of these responses sound like a confused Tory who says " but why not just earn more?" when people point out they're struggling with the cost of living. I'm lucky now, I'm one of those capable, independent women the OP mentioned, but I came from a town like the OP describes, and recognise this type of person- I knew many. The saddest thing about the cycle of poverty and lack of life skills is that it leads to no options, and I think it's hard for people to understand if they've never witnessed it. Having options in life is what people mean when they talk about privilege, and it's what i try to instil in my kids - acquire the skills and get the qualifications, even if you never need them, because they are an insurance policy. Sorry OP, I have no good ideas, the only job I can think of that might work is midday supervisor, but I think many, many people are stuck in this situation, and it's so very sad.

@steppemum From the limited information you have been able to give on this open forum about this lady's difficulties and the support she would need from an employer to maintain a role of paid employment, I do wonder if she's receiving the correct benefits. Could you support her to access a charity who can help with a review of her benefits, maybe put in an appeal against whatever her last decision is - I'm not up to speed with how Universal Credit works in this regard but she might fit the criteria of being put into a Limited Capacity for Work group (which I know is available for ESA claims but most areas have fully switched to UC now so I don't know if this would still apply but there might be something else similar that she would fall into).

If she had a brain injury which has caused her difficulties then an organisation like Headway might be able to signpost her in the right direction to get support with her benefits claim/appeals or perhaps a more generic organisation like the Citizens Advice Bureau.

I know someone like this, OP. Actually, she does work (as a cleaner in my office) but only for a few hours each week and she is under pressure to get more. Her work ethic is excellent. She is genuinely trying very hard but there are a lot of barriers. It's complex. I strongly suspect that she has learning difficulties, and certainly she is very limited in the scope of what she can actually do. She also has mental health issues and major anxiety about travelling to certain parts of the city as a result of ptsd. (She previously fled from an abusive relationship and became homeless for a while.)

I think it's easy for people to say that there are lots of jobs, but some people are really lacking in the skills that they need to be employable, not to mention the confidence in their own abilities that they need to be able to secure themselves a job. They may not have the literacy or digital skills required to get a job. They may not have sufficient support for their mental health. The education system has failed them, really, as has society as a whole. The lack of affordable public transport is also an issue, as well as affordable, accessible childcare of course.

I think a lot of people project their own circumstances onto these situations, thinking that they would find a way if it were them. This isn't helpful. People have different circumstances, different barriers and different capabilities.

I really hope that you are able to help this lady find a way forward, OP. It sounds like she wants to work, even though everything is stacked against her. She is lucky to have someone like you to support her.

There have been dozens of reasonable, realistic suggestions.
not really. There have been dozens of suggestions that would work if you have childcare, an ability to organise and start your own business, or the opportunity to study. None of which apply.

So, revisit care work, then. Why not go back to the 4 companies that would have taken her on, explain that she hopes to increase her hours as her child gets older, and sell the advantages to them?
Yes, she can only work say Mon-Fri 9 am-2 pm currently, but this means those core hours are covered by her in term-time.
She can sell herself by saying that she's happy to cover for staff sickness or annual leave on her days off or days where she hasn't been allocated shifts (again, Mon-Fri)
She could also ask them to take her on as relief: i.e. she won't have a fixed weekly pattern, but they can call her as and when to see if she can cover shifts when her child is in school

As other posters have said, any childcare she manages to use will be factored into her universal credit payments

Is she in receipt of free school meals? Then there will be school holiday play
schemes and activities for her child to attend whilst she works for a few hours a day.
I think from everything you have shared that care work and cleaning are viable options.

I am smiling at many of these responses, because it is such a reflection of mn. Capable independent women carving out a life for themsleves
It is just that women like this really don't /can't do that, some skills cannot be taught

Re-read your OP. This sounds as if you are describing someone who could work, is capable of working in a range of jobs (except retail), but can only work school hours and has difficulties due to where she lives.
Then you start saying "I'm smiling at response", "typical MN" etc. You did not provide the most crucial information in your first post (and many people don't read the updates...) that the woman obviously has some kind of learning difficulties, poor numeracy and literacy skills, difficult managing everyday life.
If that had been clear at the beginning you would have received completely different responses than "she could become a self-employed cleaner", "she could study" etc.

Why has this person not been assessed? Why does she not have a diagnosis? If she did, then perhaps she would be handled differently by the job centre or be able to work in some kind of business specifically offering jobs to people with these kinds of difficulties.

I think the point about the commute isn't that a 40 minute commute is unreasonable it is that it makes the hours she is available quite short and they won't be easy hours to get.

I actually did get a job with those sort of times and school when mine were little but it was because my exDH knew a supermarket manager and he allowed me to work those hours, he'd never have advertised them. So I did 10 till 2, hand as I covered lunches but the shop was busy when people on the way to schools/jobs and again later in the day and I couldn't do those times. It did cause some friction with other mothers who couldn't get the same hours.

Having read the full thread, I understand what the OP is saying about her friend / mentee and the fact is that some people, for whatever reason, are just not able to participate in the world of employment. They're just not.

I am a highly educated, higher-rate tax-paying senior professional with three degrees and all the rest of that fuckery and IMO, it's my job in society - with all my privilege and benefits and gifts and advantages and what have you - to look after people like this.

This is literally what civic society and the benefit state is for and this is why I am a socialist.

My proviso here - my 'dog in the fight' in the social contract - is that this woman's child / children is / are supported sufficiently so that cycles don't repeat themselves.

If she has a computer then she could do online admin type stuff, if she is up to it and has the skills.

I work in employment and training support, for those in social housing and here's a few things that might help:
Cleaning - some employers pick up / drop off, as they are aware of the issues around where housing is / lack of public transport.
Is CSCS training an option and this can supports commercial / new build site cleaning roles.
School support roles - lunchtime cover, school club support, what schools are in the local area and has she applied to them?
Care work - walking rounds are available in some parts and employers will often provide the basic training, as they struggle to recruit.
Could she volunteer at her child's school to gain work experience / confidence and then perhaps be well placed when a role becomes available?
Does the council / housing association have employment support and has she contacted them to see what they can advise / offer?
Upskilling / training / what's her digital skills like - could she work on this to look at working from home and there is often funding or support from housing associations and voluntary organisations to fund kit and connectivity for IT hardware. The Job Centre has their flexible funding for this too and it is a grant, not a loan.
Customer facing an issue, then how to address this and volunteering / support may be available from Job Centre, alongside helping with any issues that may be barriers.
Has she asked or been referred to programmes such as Restart / Work and Health via the Job Centre and if not, why not? Worth asking for help to move her closer to work and not simply being told what she should do, but asking what is available to help her. You could go along and support her at her appointments.
Has she checked if work pays? This is a good benefit calculator benefits-calculator.turn2us.org.uk/

I hope some of this is useful.

There are definitely some schools with very limited wrap around options. Some are more rural and some are in more deprived urban areas, especially where the more affluent parts of the area tend to be people who don't move away and therefore have a lot of family support.

If you're not a gregarious chatty person its way more difficult to infiltrate the existing cliques and start sharing childcare, especially if you're judged for living on the wrong street.

I've lived in several places where childcare only really exists for local work times - even with a car the journey times are just too long.

Predictable 9-5 roles (which would squeeze into most wrap around if available) are also getting less common.

I'm much more privileged and struggling to work to fit around my husband's unpredictable hours at work (which include regular weekends and at least 1 (varying) weeknight). However we don't "need" me to work financially (like I said privileged) so we can be picky with the hours to make me working an actual benefit to the family overall (not just financial considerations).

The UK society really needs good quality affordable wrap around care at all schools - lots of people run into trouble when they are placed in a school with no wrap around and away from family support networks (that they didn't choose but catchments) having managed working around the longer and more predictable nursery hours. If wrap around hours were fully and reliably available there would be more demand for it as people took advantage and used it to get into work with slightly more flexibility.

School holidays are usually just about ok if you're working school hours because there are quite a lot of council run school hours holiday schemes that are no more expensive than nursery would have been. But again wrap around is much more expensive and less available...

@Gudbrand

Why has this person not been assessed? Why does she not have a diagnosis? If she did, then perhaps she would be handled differently by the job centre

I agree, and I think the OP might be better placed helping her friend / mentee access this.

Cleaning , my cleaners have all worked school hours.

According to the OP, the woman is barely literate, so probably not.

Yes, exactly this.

I am sorry that you think I have been snarky or drip fed, that was not my intention.
My descriptions of this lady are not withering, but they are honest. She struggles with these things, and is not able to do these things.
I have also pointed out her determination and the things she wants to do.
My withering is for those who cannot understand that not everyone is able to start their own business, and not everyone is able to just get training and a job.
My withering is for the idea that she can magic childcare out of thin air.

I apologise for using the term sink estate, in reality I spend a lot of time telling people not to use terms like that about it, I guess I used it as a shorthand on here, as you don't know the specific place. It has massive issues of social and economic deprivation. The name of the estate is infamous in the town I live in, which in itself can also be a problem. On the other hand, this estate has a many positives, strong sense of community and long deep relationships between people.

The charity got involved as she asked for some specific help with some specific things, and I continue because we became friends. I have never said that I will 'sort her out' or that as a charity we are involved on the estate to 'sort out' people there. There are people involved who live on and off the estate, a lot of support is basic practical and just an extension of neighbourliness.

I did start this as a bit of a rant, because I am frustrated with a situation where she wants to get into work, but the options are so limited, and the pressure on her is huge. She is distressed by that pressure, and that makes me cross, as she is trying to do what the job centre asks.

4 major care agencies have said they would take her on, but turned her down due to her asking for school hours

Genuinely surprised at this, given how desperate many are for staff; I get they prefer flexibility but would have thought they'd accept her just to close a gap

Have you actually been with her to hear any of these "refusals", because while she's undoubtably got a lot going on, she does seem to be putting an awful lot of barriers in the way?

And having lost the care of two children already, I do hope that her contraception at least is watertight?