What does job centre/society actually expect this woman to do?

[steppemum]

I support a lady (friendship through a charity) I'll change some details to make it less identifiable.

She has a son aged 5 and in school and so the job centre are giving her a lot of hassle to get into work. But I just cannot see how she is supposed to do this:

• she is a single mum. Her partner is not son's dad and doesn't live with her.


• she lives on a large council estate out of town. Very little work on the estate. 20 minute bus ride into town. Some work in town, mostly in shops (which I doubt she would get, she's not likely to get a customer facing job) most work is then a further 20 minutes on the bus from the bus station in town.


• there is no breakfast club or after school club, or holiday clubs at the school


• there are no childminders on the estate. The closest ones are about 1 mile away, and don't do school drop offs or pick ups


• she does have local family, but they are not willing to do any childcare, either before/after school, or in the holidays.


• she is only likely to get a minimum wage job as she has no qualifications.

So, she could only work day time, from about 9:30 - 2:00 in order to do school run, no weekends and she has no-one to look after her son in the holidays.

Job centre has told her she is being too fussy and she must be more flexible with timings.

Am I missing something here? I just don't see HOW she can get a job! She would like to work actually, but is also pretty scared about ending up with less money.

Our council website has old peoples home care jobs on 8.30-2.30. She’d need morning child care. Another mum on estate might take her child (people must be using informal set ups if no childcare)
Or school catering assistant. Again 10-30-2.30 type hours school days plus 3 cleaning days on council website. Food hygiene cert a plus but not essential.

He’s dead. Maybe you should at least read the OPs updates before making such asinine comments.

well, massive sink council estate on the edge of town, with poor transport links and no childcare would be a start.

people use the word sink estates, aren’t they just housing estates?

maybe living in London where estates are near high cost housing breaks down these preconceptions.

To be honest, she sounds as if she is deserving of as much help as she can get, not the job centre nagging her to get a job. She needs help not unrealistic suggestions

She could try and go through an agency. They can find part time work to fit within her availability and are more flexible. At least she will have something for now.

Yep. This jumped out at me as well.

I have a relative with autism and a lot of what you’ve said reminds me of all the issues getting them to work. An utter nightmare. They’re Fit enough to do something when it’s been set up and they’re supervised but they’re just not in any way up to the rigours of modern work life with commuting, pointless paperwork, the relentless drive to ‘move up the ladder’ (they can’t and will always be minimum wage) they needed massive help with organising life admin etc.

These are the people that really need a safety net from the government and flexibility from employers.

Could she try connecting with other parents on a local Facebook page or similar if there are childminders that could have her child early or late a few days a week and she could drop off and do the shifts?

Some people are just not capable of working due to their inability and / or circumstances and that's why we have benefits. Unfortunately the job centre take a view that everyone is a scrounger and make life difficult.
So there are a few options that could work for your friend - if she is capable of working then she could set herself up as a self employed cleaner / ironing lady. My brothers ex wife does this as she doesn't drive and lives somewhere a bit awkward for busses so she does cleaning and ironing at times convenient to her. She could also do some childcare, maybe just a couple of kids after school, if the school has no after school club there must be a demand for it!
If she really isn't capable of doing this then she just needs to do what the job centre tells her to - apply and go along to interviews for totally unsuitable jobs, not get the job, and continue to get her benefits.

@steppemum can you try speaking to adult social services? She’s quite clearly vulnerable but with no official diagnosis it’s going to always be a massive struggle for her to get by.

Mencap may be able to assist too.

Does that charity you’re working with have any route to finding this woman more support?

This thread is unbelievable. The assumption that everyone can just start a business etc
The OP has explained really well what all the barriers are for this family but still the response is 'she's not trying hard enough'.

A very Tory response. Like the MP telling the news that people who are struggling just need to work more or get a better job. Of course, why didn't anyone else think of that. 😂

I'm not going to make any job suggestions but would like to say I'm glad that she has you to help her and advocate for her. I think this is an example of how the system wants people to work but makes zero allowances or flexibilities to make that possible for people in challenging situations.

steppemum I have worked in community roles for many years and I can completely understand what you are saying.

if you are a self motivated woman with good literacy, or even just adequate literacy, with an ability to envision a different situation to the one in which you find yourself it must seem unbelievable that the OP’s friend can’t do something to sort out her problems.
I have met so many people whose lives are chaotic because these factors pile up around then.
Learning difficulties or Inadequate ability to learn or lack of education due to family life as a child.
Lack of understanding around what society expects or living in a culture that does not value education or work.
inability to organise one’s life; we see lots if threads on here where women believe they have undiagnosed ADHD, ADD etc. Add this to the above.
I work closely with Community Employment Officers locally and some of their clients present on a rolling programme of accepting jobs or training and not being able to fulfil the needs of the employer.

I think a Citizen’s Basic Income is well worth looking at.
I have to go out now but here is a simple description of how it works.

Graphic explains Citizen’s Basic Income

It's incredibly tough for someone in her situation as even if she did manage to get hired she would need to be heavily directed and closely managed. Retail is notoriously short staffed and need staff that can switch from shelving to being on the till to work in the back. This wouldn't necessarily be ideal for her.

that is a great summary actually.

I know that she is at the extreme end, but I do think people forget that many people don't have the ecuation and social skills to do many jobs that are available.

Sink estates are specifically council estates with high levels of crime and social / economic deprivation. Not just any old housing estates.

Single mum here! Of five children yes five! Work full time too. Everyone's circumstances are different but here are mine. So I was a stay at home parent in a abusive relationship, had not much work history so employers would not touch me with a barge pole. I did cleaning, agency work, mobile hairdressing, threading eyebrows, mystery shopping,amongst other things which required zero skills while trying to earn money to leave my ex. Got to a point where I thought naff this, I need something consistent, more reliable etc etc . I got a voluntary placement at a church centre for elderly groups, gained some references that way. Got into part time work, DWP then helped me with child care costs, got more experience and references etc etc and then moved into different roles. Then I took the leap into full time work and have never looked back. It can be done or it won't be done. There are no excuses

Not everyone can start a business no

biut in a few posts the op has said she would get work if it wasn’t for the hours issue

the people in her area who want childcare but the school doesn’t organise it because they think demand isn’t there, should let the school know they’d like to work but having no cc is a barrier

back to the woman - there is likely some work that is possible if hours issue is overcome

I used to work in a job centre and I know the exact type of person you are talking about in terms of ability. Not everyone has a decent IQ, some people are really lovely but cannot plan, or do jobs without someone standing over them. We used to find jobs for them but the feedback was always that they would never progress from being a trainee with someone with them all the time. The thing is they really wanted to work, have money, have prospects but just struggled with day to day life.

My friend's daughter lived in a supported living facility where they reminded them not only to pay their bills but shop for food or shower. However these placements only last so long. Society does not see these people. She does work but with her aunt as a cleaner and despite doing the same offices etc for the last 15 years she still has to be told what to clean every single time. It is tiring but she has been diagnosed with ASD as an adult. She is classed as vulnerable by the police after several incidents of random strangers taking advantage of her. She is truly very sweet but without the aunt shadowing her she would never have held down any job.

For your friend I would turn it back to the job centre, this is all about meeting targets for them, X number of people in jobs, X number of people subbed onto courses. What is their solution to her childcare?

There have been dozens of suggestions that would work if you have childcare, an ability to organise and start your own business, or the opportunity to study. None of which apply.

But she hasn't done even a basic literacy or numeracy course, available free. She has the opportunity to do free courses during the 6 or so hours a day her son is at school to give her even a little more confidence and make her a bit more employable. Wfh can be a great option but no one is going to give her that kind of job if she can't read effectively.

Holidays are tougher, can she arrange with other parents to share the holidays (so one would have her dc for a day and in exchange she could have their dc for a day), holiday clubs- she might have to look around a bit but they aren't uncommon.

From the information you've given she might benefit from seeking a diagnosis as her lack of basic skills are concerning. You don't say why her other dc don't live with her, but are SS involved and can they offer any support either in helping her find work, childcare or a diagnosis to support PIP?
I feel for the child in this situation, does he have support?

OP you say you support her through a charity, does the charity in question have any kind of work programmes for people like her looking to get into work?

I absolutely sympathise. People suggesting childminders/customer facing/cleaning are basing those suggestions on their own experiences, but the fact that over 50% of people with a disability are out of work, and that’s not a coincidence.

It sounds as if this woman has a learning disability even if she has not been formally diagnosed, and so getting into work is going to automatically be more difficult for her.

I am visually impaired and have been looking for work for what seems like forever. Jobs like childminding/hospitality/retail just aren’t accessible to me. Truth be told that not everyone can or should be a childminder anyway, but hospitality/retail aren’t accessible to me in the slightest or I would be doing one of them by now.

I am of course willing to try hairdressing if there are any takers? ;)

Currently I’m looking at self employment, maybe writing/podcasting/blogging for 3rd parties as getting a job is virtually impossible for me.

Does she have any kind of skill she could utilise? Some kind of craft perhaps so she could set up an Etsy shop? It would be a small starter but if she does well then she could build on that?

OP, have you just come on here for a rant, because you have been snippy and sarky with everyone who has made an honest ,reasonable suggestion. The drip feed of all the issues this person has also makes it difficult to assess what the actual problem is.

Quite frankly, from your withering descriptions of this person, it would sound like she isn't suitable for the workplace in general , and just needs to do some course or training through the job centre to build their confidence up and get them ready for some kind of very basic job when they are in a better position to do so.

I also really don't like the sound of this charity you are working for, you seem to have a very 'uncharitable' view of people who live on council estates and find themselves in unfortunate positions, and that they just need sorting out by people like yourself. I'm sensing a church based thing here.

Not at all surprised that MN is failing to grasp this, but the imagination failure is a bit depressing all the same.

@steppemum I think your lady needs your help setting up some private caring arrangements. After she drops her DC at school, she would have time to call in on someone needing help to live independently, help with washing, dressing, food preparation, tidying, running errands etc. She could do that for the same person every day or have a little portfolio of folk she helps on a regular basis. Then all done by 2.30 so she can pick her child up again and go home. Can you help her find such people and also help her set up the self-employment paperwork?

Doesn’t sound a term that works in anyone’s favour - ie the people living there who would like to work. I’d get rid if it I had the choice.

it just makes it harder - they are from the sink estate etc people can build up a picture before knowing the person

If she genuinely doesn’t have the capacity to learn to read and write, or provide a safe environment for child minding, can’t clean without supervision I think she needs to go down the medical route. It’s quite unusual that someone is that affected in their day to day life, there must be a diagnosis. If she can access help that way and isn’t desperate for money she could then look at volunteering at a care home or similar and get experience that way. They may well offer her a paid position if she is able to do that job. Or maybe just look at volunteering during school hours or when her mum is free for childcare. Experience counts for a lot

OP you are being so patient and generous in your responses.

This lady is lucky to have your support in any capacity, even if at present the challenge of finding suitable (not picky, just physically possible!) work has not yet been overcome. I wish her all the best.

as an aside, anyone reading/read ‘invisible women’ will recognise the limitations of transport, childcare and the algorithms used by the government (job centre) highlighted in this post which disadvantage women, specifically poor women. Very sad.

To those who insist that "she needs a diagnosis" - she may not meet criteria. There are actually a whole lot of people out there who don't quite meet criteria for an intellectual disability (IQ is not low enough), but have a low IQ / have trouble learning. There is not support for them because they don't really have a disability, but they just struggle to function well in today's demanding work environments.

What has your charity supervisor suggested @steppemum ? Have you spoken to them as working with children, animals, cleaning and public facing roles are out
Are there any life skill courses you can get her on? Can you volunteer somewhere with her so she is gains skills - that could come into your remit of supporting her