If you've seen someone die, what happened? (TW: trauma, loss, death, terminal illness)

[HangingOver]

This is quite difficult to write, as I have OCD and, ever since I was small, it has relentlessly latched on to the idea that if I talk about the idea of a loved one dying, write it, or even think the words, that it will somehow cause it to happen and it will be my fault. Therefore, like a lot of people, I imagine, I try to completely avoid talking or thinking about it at all, and if you have similar issues, I'm warning you in advance this thread will upset you.

But here goes, inspired by all the talk about dear Deborah James and her latest news, I wanted to try to talk about it becasue I really, really fear death and never talk about it with anyone IRL.

The thing that got me thinking this morning was a very clever and kind sounding palliative care doctor on Radio Five Live this morning talking about what generally happens at the end of someone's life in a hospice. She made it sound quite gentle, slow and peaceful and made sure to point out that physiological changes, such as changes in breathing patterns etc. aren't signs of distress, they're more involuntary noises of unconsciousness that the person doesn't know they're making (like when you snore, I guess).

I know she's generalising and of course this is what most people want to hear...and perhaps it is what happens for a lot of people...but that wasn't my experience of losing my Mum AT ALL. At least, it was up to a point, but at the actual moment of death, having been unconscious for many many days, she bloody 'woke up', for about 30 seconds. She appeared to be crying (or at least her eyes were heavily watering) and basically suffocated in front of us while seeming to stare at me with a terrified look in her eyes.

It was so, so, so bloody awful and I will never get over it. I can still see it in my mind's eye with absolute clarity. I feel so so sorry for what she must have been feeling in that moment. I've spoken to two friends who also lost a parent who was about the same age (60-ish) and they have said the same thing; and also said that they weren't aware this was a thing that happened and it was an awful shock.

So what gives? Were our relatives just unlucky or is this actually more common than people realise? Or is it actually all purely physical and she wouldn't have know anything clutching at straws-

I've googled it but most people seem to refer to a 'non-peaceful death' as one where the person was very upset towards/about the end of their life, rather than this 'waking up' thing.

Sorry in advance for starting possibly the most depressing and awful thread imaginable! I just find it so difficult to talk to anyone IRL about becasue of aforementioned problems (this has taken a long time to write as you can imagine!!)

@ObjectionHearsay my Dad died in his sleep and the paramedics were called and did CPR - the family who were there at the time still find those memories upsetting. It's so easy in stressful times to find it hard to know what the right thing to do is.
You so so clearly did the right thing and surely it was just an omission or mistake that she didn't have every visible surface plastered with DNR.

I have witnessed the deaths of both my parents. They both refused palliative care, so it was much more traumatic (for everyone involved) than it needed to be. The nursing team were so concerned about my own MH afterwards that the doctor from the palliative care hospice came to see me at home and explain why it was this traumatic and the difference between dying at home under those circumstances and dying in a well-controlled medical environment, and as I have started studying nursing, I now know this to be true. There is more dignity, pain-relief, humour, control over the process and I would never inflict the experience I had with my parent’s deaths upon my kids.
In a previous job I had also given cpr to a baby. I was fine in the moment, but went into shock when I got home.

I have lost both my parents and watched the process of dying. My DF had battled bowel cancer for 7 years, but it spread to his bladder and he was in a lot of pain when his catheter became blocked. He had a hospital bed in the lounge, and was nursed by my DM and the oncall night nurse. 2 weeks before he died, he called out in pain, I went to see him and called the doctor to administer morphine. The doctor arrived and read his notes (not the normaly doctor as it was middle of the night) he said "oh you poor man" and gave him a whole phial of morphine (he normally had only a tenth of a phial) I was so grateful though as my dad slumped back into the bed and relaxed, pain free for the first tie. I sat with my DM that night after the doctor left and we discussed whether we had witnessed a crime, as we were both aware he had been given a much larger dose of morphine (but for the right reasons).

The following day my dad, was still not fully conscious but a bed had become available in the local hospice, I went with my dad, my mum had developed flu and my DSIS was in hospital herself having surgery so it was just me and dad in the hospice for the next week. The doctor asked me what I hoped the outcome of his visit there would be, I thought it a strange question, but answered that I just wanted his pain to stop.

He was awake a little later and thirsty I brought him a drink and held a straw to his mouth, he drank a lot. Then I put the archers on the radio by his bed and a nurse showed me how to give him an aromatherapy hand massage. I left at the end of each day and then returned first thing the next day. A nurse spotted me as the lone visitor by my dads bedside and at this stage my dad was on a syringe driver, the nurse came and sat with me, he was lovely and caring, he told me that in the night my dad had become restless and agitated so they moved his bed into the nurses station. He told me to take a break so I went out and looked around the town nearby (it was coming up to Christmas and I felt so angry and confused that everyone was so happy doing their Christmas shopping when I was about to lose my dad)

This continued for a week, my DSIS managed to visit (she had had a hysterectomy for cancer so wasnt really up to visiting but wanted to see him), we both noticed that dad looked dead already, his skin was grey and his body was lifeless but he was breathing, so we continued to chat to him and hold his hand.

On the day he died, the nurses told us it wasnt going to happen that night and to go home, as soon as we got to the front door, we had a call to come back, we rushed back, my dad had been moved to another side room at the hospice. The nurse emerged from his rooms with her hands stretched out to me, she said I am so sorry he has gone, she had tears in her eyes, I always thought about that, had my dad woken and shouted out in pain at the final moment, is that what had affected her, although she said he went peacefully, it does make me think.

My DM on the other hand did die very peacefully, she was in a specialist care home as she had alzeimers and also ovarian cancer (secondaries in her lymph node in her neck) she had stopped eating and drinking which the doctor said could have been caused by either her conditions. She was in a good mood when me and my sister arrived, very playful and sweet. She then went to sleep, her breathing became rattly and then stopped just as my sister and me held her hand and said, "its OK mum, me and Jenny are here, you can go now, we will be OK" My mum then stopped breathing, her eyes were open but looked opaque, I think she was blind. I promised my mum when she was alive that I would double check she was dead as she had a fear of being buried alive, so she stayed in her care home bed overnight, under the duvet just like she was sleeping. She was given some drugs but not like my dad, and even a few hours before she had passed she physically got out of bed to use the toilet, which the staff said was strange in light of her not having eaten or drank for days and being so weak, but that was a typical thing for my mum to do so maybe its her mind taking over on auto pilot.

My mums last words on the day she died was "everybodys different" which was very poignant as this was said on the radio when we returned with the undertaker to collect her the next day. My DSIS and I had had a fall out and both me and my DSIS think it was mums way of saying to forgive each other, (which we have)

Sorry such a long post, I sort of relived it as I typed.

Yes, I mean looking back after I did some reflection on it the 999 call handler was just following a script, nan and mum were just in desperation because it was their sister/daughter.

They knew I wouldn't, they knew she did have a DNR but in that moment of grief and panic they just didn't want to let her go.

I knew I was under no legal obligation to begin CPR, I just had to remember "I promised, I promised her this, this was her final wish"

Shed battled for 5 years and she was tired, in pain and wanted it to end.

my dear mum was 102 when she died she had vascular dementia She was nursed at home and had been unresponsive for about ten days her death was very upsetting we were giving Mum a bed bath and as we were rolling her over she suddenly became sick and after about a five minutes took two breaths and passed away It was a very upsetting moment After eight years we still find it very distressing and not what we would have wanted for our lovely Mum

I watched my husband die. I'm glad I did, but it was a harrowing experience because I was told he would die just 24 hours earlier and he was on pain meds because it was liver disease. He was dying, he spoke to us - he hadn't spoken for 6 hours, so I dont think he should have been able to but he did. He asked for a kiss.

He opened his eyes really wide for a few seconds, then closed them again. We actually thought he had died, but he lived for several minutes more.

It haunted me. Through a friend who is into an ideology that is akin to the Na'vi in Avatar, I attended a retreat. I then heard about a chemical we produce just twice in our lives - at birth and at death. It occurs naturally in some plants and is used by indigenous tribes as medicine esp in the Amazon. Universities have used it to see what people experience when taking it too.

Through the same friend, I then saw a youtube video of a women who does regressive hypnotherapy talk about what people say when they die. m.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct-RqPGDz6c This gave me comfort, but I wanted to try the chemical to see for myself - it's an illegal substance just like other drugs.

I am massively anti-drugs btw, but I got some in a vape and tried it. I can honestly say if that is what happens when you die, it is a peaceful, exciting experience. It gave me the comfort I needed to not worry about my hubby dying.

Here's some research on the matter

www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2018.01424/full

For the sceptics amongst us, it has also be shown that when we die, a specific type of energy leaves the body. www.express.co.uk/news/science/1005845/life-after-death-what-happens-when-you-die-soul-quantum This energy is considered the soul which may be reborn into another life-form.

I watched my Dad die and it was very peaceful. He became very agitated and started to hallucinate in the morning then sunk into a deep sleep which he didn't wake up from. He died in hospital and was helped on his way with a morphine drip.

I got this blackish fluid coming up after I gave birth. The midwife said it was bile as I hadn't eaten for so long. I realise its a very different situation but i wanted to say it wasn't stressful and wasn't at all like "drowning" - just like being sick.

Back in the day, I have heard that morphine was more freely available to use by doctors for end of life care. But since the Harold Shipman case, it is much more restricted. A long time ago-probably the ‘70s- my MIL nursed her mother at home who was dying of cancer. She was given morphine to use by the GP with information that a certain dosage would be eventually fatal - very much a nod to help her out of pain. I suspect that sort of thing happened a lot then, but probably not now as things are more tightly regulated -too tightly regulated?

@Diversion, if someone is dying anyway, their organs may be shutting down so that they can no longer process food and drink.

An elderly aunt of mine, with dementia and the umpteenth UTI, was refusing food and drink for around a week before she died. I was with her a lot of the time and staff did keep offering drinks and e.g. yoghurt, but she would just close her mouth and turn her head away. Her mouth was kept moist with little sponges.

As a doctor once put it, ‘They are not dying because they are not eating and drinking. They are not eating and drinking because they are dying.’

@Snowiscold, personally I think it barbaric that people who are dying anyway, cannot be given enough morphine to keep them free from pain, even if that does mean they die a little sooner.

But maybe it still happens. I know of someone whose partner was dying of cancer and in a lot of distress. The doctor gave him a shot, saying, ‘You’ll feel a lot better in the morning.’ He went to sleep and never woke up. This was well after Shipman, BTW.

His DP was initially very upset, thinking it had been a case of deliberately letting him go, but soon came to realise that it had been kinder than making him suffer any longer.

I saw a boy I knew, my friends ex bf, get shot in a club that my bf at the time had arranged the event (was a promoter). Was horrible but many years ago now.

We brought my dad home from hospital. Drs thought he had a week or so left. That night I sat with him. He was semi-conscious but couldn’t speak. At about 2 o’clock, he got very agitated. I calmed him down, held his hand, told him I was there and he just closed his eyes and went. I wish I’d realised what was happening so I could have woken my mum. It broke my heart. Death scares me and I always said I hoped I wasn’t there when he went but in the end, I’m glad I was.

I’m so sorry you had such a traumatic experience with your mum.

I can only relate my experience when my husband died a couple of years ago. He had collapsed and been rushed to hospital - diagnosed with a serious chest infection which had turned to pneumonia. After being unconscious on a ventilator for a few days, a CT scan revealed an inoperable lung tumour which was the underlying cause of the infection. Nothing could be done as the tumour had already spread and the next day he was taken off the ventilator.

It wasn’t anything like you see in the movies, where the machine is switched off and the person passes away there and then. The staff asked his family to come in to the ITU and we waited outside while they took him off the ventilator and then we were asked to come back in and sit by his bedside - all the monitors were still attached but the screens had been moved outside so that the staff could monitor him. We were advised to keep talking to him as they think hearing is one of the last senses to go. It was all very peaceful - at first his breathing was normal and then it began to slow. I was talking to him, telling him how much I loved him and how everything was OK when he took a couple of deep breaths, breathed out and then it was over. I hope that my voice was the last thing he heard and that he knew I was there with him.

It sounds to me as though, in addition to the fear of death you mention, that you may be suffering from a form of PTSD. I think no matter how peacefully a loved one passes away, there is always some level of trauma for the relatives and you may benefit from some form of grief counselling. I know you say you are unable to talk about these things easily but you’ve articulated how you feel really well in your post. My husbands’ diagnosis and death was totally unexpected - one minute life was as it had always been and the next, life changed out of all recognition - in the space of less than two weeks. I couldn’t get to grips with it, and although I had support from family and friends, talking to a trained counsellor who was totally impartial helped massively. I felt I could say anything without fear of upsetting or causing offence as I sorted out my emotions and tried to make sense of it all.

Start with a talk with your GP and ask for a referral for counselling. I had to wait a while for an appointment but it was well worth the wait. It’s not an easy process, but if you’re prepared to engage with it, it can help a lot. I wish you well💐

I believe my father in law knew he was going to die,we had moved him the previous week from 40 miles away to a nursing home close to us,we visited him on the Wednesday and when we left he shook mine and my husbands hands (something he’d never done before) we said see you Friday and don’t forget * our son was visiting Thursday,yes I will get ready for him he said.
anyway Thursday morning the nurse was helping him dress ready for his visit,he made a joke tipped his head back laughing and died. Just like that. We like to remember he died laughing

Thats a lovely image from your dream, it made me tear up. The dreams are so precious aren’t they? I lost my brother but sometimes he’s in my dreams and it’s so comforting to see him alive and moving and talking and exactly as he was. I don’t know that I believe in all the woo stuff, but part of me is very comforted by the idea that he can visit me in my dreams, they always seem to come when I need them lost, the reassurance that he’s fine, exactly as he always was, dry witted and forever young, not a care in the world.

I think it's stomach lining. Black and like coffee grounds?

Read Katherine Mannox book. She's the palliative consultant you heard on the radio. She changed my nursing career. I feared seeing a patient die until I went to see her talk and read her book. I then chose a hospice placement as a student nurse. IT WAS INCREDIBLE. Read the book, it will help.

It’s not the stomach lining. It’s partially digested blood. When we reach the end of life our bodies go into multiple organ failure which effects our blood and all of its components, when the clotting cascade becomes deranged we can bleed from lots of different places, including the stomach. Coffee ground vomit is blood that has been changed by digestive enzymes.

Thanks to everyone for posting about your experiences and sorry for your losses. Op and others who witnessed traumatic deaths, did anyone find grief counselling helped?

I am still struggling with my dad’s recent death as it was nothing like any of my grandparents and I wish I could have made it different for him.

My grandparents’ deaths were all in hospital but each was dignified. Quiet dedicated wards with an air of tranquility and each passing was peaceful.

My dad had cancer but had to go in to hospital for an emergency medical procedure, despite us promising to keep him at home. He went down hill the second night and was transferred to normal ward and put in side room - different people in and out, emptying bins and lockers, “did he want tea or coffee” “what’s he ordered for lunch” one woman trying to force feed him porridge and him screaming in pain when she tilted the bed, broken alarm going off by his bed night and day, nurse barking at me to go back in the room and press the buzzer when I went out to ask about pain relief.

Such little compassion but also little medical intervention until the end. No nurses to be seen for hours on end. He would have been better off at home. Also zero communication from doctors. I had to Google end of life signs to find out what was going on. It went on for days… I tried to get him home but he didn’t make it.

Why don’t hospitals have special palliative care wards dedicated solely for dying patients? Or hospices attached to them? Everyone deserves dignity and compassion when they die. How is it so hard for hospitals to provide this?

I have been present at a lot of deaths due to my job and in almost all cases they just slipped quietly away some were briefly lucid and just like themselves chatting to their loved ones then just settled down and died Some folk who have been" on their death bed "for weeks have been in and out of consciousness and have hallucinated and chatted to folk who weren't there I've never actually witnessed an awful death Seeing folk struggling in pain is far worse and continued life then is worse than death

This is a really interesting thread, thanks for starting it OP and to those who've replied.

I've never seen anyone die, but have sat with those who are close and seen that they haven't had long to go.

A few years ago, I went on an introductory day course for being a death doula - like a birth doula only the other way round. There were about a dozen there and the day allowed us all to talk and share experiences about death, which people in this country seem to struggle with. Many were very nervous at the start, I think maybe because we don't talk about death and what happens when someone is dying. The descriptions given were very similar to what's been related here.

There were three Irish people on the course and they all said that in Ireland death is regarded quite differently to how it is in the UK, that it's just accepted and no one is scared. One woman said that the way things generally go is that 'The kids are playing out the front, Mam's in the kitchen and Granny's dying in the back room'. Once the person has died, they remain in the house for a few days while people visit and gather together to pay their respects, which is very different to here, where the dead person is whisked away within a few hours, if that. It seemed different and kinder on everyone. I don't know if this is still the case, but was surprised at how differently the culture treats the end of life.

I watched my Step dad die. He had an op to remove tumours from his lung, recovery did not go well, he was put into an induced coma whilst the docs tried to stabilise him

After 4 days they came to the conclusion that his quality of life was significantly reducing by the day, his organs had started to shut down so the decision was made on the Friday night to reduce medication overnight and turn off life support the next day

It was a peaceful death. From turning life support off to passing was about 10 mins and we were allowed to stay with him afterwards for about an hour then the nurses asked to leave while they removed all his tubes and wires, seeing him after was fine . This was the 1st time I had seen somebody after death and I remember being surprised at how quickly the body goes cold (sorry if that is tmi)

Also, just wanted to mention the medical staff (based at Guys) who were very good in the whole situation, they explained everything clearly and even afterwards looked after my step dad so he looked presentable and explained to my mum the next steps

We learned that if a death occurs within 10 days of an operation it is standard procedure for a post mortem to take place, on this occasion one was not needed so that allowed for quick release of the body to go to the funeral home . My step dad had made it known that he wanted to be buried in Ireland in the family plot and it was an open coffin wake