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Ukraine Invasion: Part 24

1000 replies

MagicFox · 05/05/2022 17:40

Welcome one and all and thanks again to everyone contributing

OP posts:
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33
Ijsbear · 10/05/2022 11:02

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 09:55

Oh and the whole concept of orcs in Lotr itself is they are supposed to be another race corrupted and tortured by dark magic.

Elves actually. Bred by Morgoth, Sauron's master, from captured and tormented elves (such a geek).

Ijsbear · 10/05/2022 11:06

Russian losses

We hear nothing of Ukrainian losses other than notable deaths. The figures of 1000 military vehicles/systems lost and 3000 Ukrainian military deaths have floated around but these are entirely unconfirmed. However as someone upthread said, Zelenskyy did say that the Ukrainians were having a very very tough time.

My heart wishes to send in NATO troops though I know that's a really bad idea.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 24
Ukraine Invasion: Part 24
WeAreTheHeroes · 10/05/2022 11:12

On either last night's 10 O'clock News or Breakfast this morning, there was a report following a Ukrainian team collecting Russian bodies from what had been a battlefield. One of the guys loading body bags into an ambulance said words to the effect he couldn't understand how they (the Russians) could sustain the losses and continue the war. He wasn't gloating or anything like that, he was clearly very moved by the loss of lives.

ScrollingLeaves · 10/05/2022 11:13

@HappyWinter · 09/05/2022 21:01
Two very brave Russian journalists put anti-war articles online, they are incredibly brave in the current climate in Russia.

‘Paranoid dictator’: Russian journalists fill pro-Kremlin site with anti-war articles
www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/09/russian-journalists-pro-kremlin-site-lenta-anti-war-articles

www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/09/russian-journalists-pro-kremlin-site-lenta-anti-war-articles

Thank you for this yesterday evening. I am reposting it because the Guardian article you linked in itself has an archived link to the hacked Lente.ru newspaper.
I realise TargusEasting later posted a link but was not sure if it had been easy to use but this one was.

What brave people. Let us hope they will survive.

I found that if you click on the articles in Russian and highlight them, (using an iPhone) in the option bar for ‘copy’ or ‘paste’ that comes up there is also ‘translate’. (It translates Russian but not Ukrainian.)

It takes a while but is interesting, even just the normal articles including supposed ‘fashion’ ones which are really titillations in disguise- for all that Putin assumes the Russians are more moral than we are.

Paragraph from the Guardian article. In the actual one the word “accessed” in the last sentence is in red. This is where you click to get the archive tool to read the hacked Lente.ru edition.

Polyakov, who works as a business reporter at Lenta, said he and his colleague Alexandra Miroshnikova published more than 40 articles critical of the Kremlin and its actions in Ukraine. The articles have since been taken down, but can be accessed through a web archive tool.

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 11:15

notimagain · 10/05/2022 10:52

Apologies for only belatedly spotting this comment posted above..

"Ben Wallace also talked about the future of uk defence and how we needed to focus less on personal and conventional equipment going forward and more on drone tech and capability."

I think many would take issue with the "less" in that.

It's way too early to start concluding we (UK and others) need to focus (aka "spend') less on personal and conventional equipment.

The reality is "drone tech" isn't fighting the war all by itself..it's an add on, a significant force multiplier that has assisted the personnel and conventional equipment...

My thought on drone tech, is its something that won't come out the defence budget alone which is actually important.

I think the UK, like the US, is looking a lot at commercially led investment as much as pure state lead stuff. NASA is now linked up with the private sector in this way with SpaceX being a big player in that.

The Oneweb project is a government/commercial project that should have gone up on a Russian rocket but didn't. Its kinda important. Its effectively starlink's competitor. If its not launched by the Russians there are limited alternatives to get it into space. I can't see it going up on one of Musk's rockets for the very obvious reason...

My gut instinct is the ESA is going to become more significant in the years ahead. The French are talking about a military branch purely for space which is separate from the navy, army and air force. I think we will see more on this. The UK being outside the EU makes this more of a pain in the arse. The fact starlink is proving itself, might kill off Oneweb (not convinced though - India are heavily invested in it).

Lots of political and economic fallout from the war, in terms of tech I think.

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 11:21

WeAreTheHeroes · 10/05/2022 11:12

On either last night's 10 O'clock News or Breakfast this morning, there was a report following a Ukrainian team collecting Russian bodies from what had been a battlefield. One of the guys loading body bags into an ambulance said words to the effect he couldn't understand how they (the Russians) could sustain the losses and continue the war. He wasn't gloating or anything like that, he was clearly very moved by the loss of lives.

Thank you, you reminded me of something I wanted to watch.

Kevin Rothrock linked to a Al jazerra english report on russian bodies being unclaimed

Its an interesting report.

ScrollingLeaves · 10/05/2022 11:21

@RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 10:26
Thank you for this
twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1523278889119854592
That is special.
There is a clear impression imo that Ukrainians are highly artistic, dynamic, innovative and creative - with flair.

ScrollingLeaves · 10/05/2022 11:32

@RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 10:28
Also being reported this morning that it seems there are still 100 civilians in the steelworks at Mariupol.

I am wondering if the confusion relates to wounded and whether its possible many of those left are unable to easily leave.

But thats kind of tougher news after the belief that all the citizens had got out.

Yes, it is bad news. I am not sure why the news kept saying all the civilians were out seeing as the Azov Steel Plant commanders in the long zoom call to journalists on Saturday clearly said there were still civilians there?

I thought that maybe not widely reporting it might have been political in some way, before the Victory Parade. As you say, maybe they are wounded and can’t get out easily. it is dreadful to think of.

ChitChatChatter · 10/05/2022 11:33

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 09:52

Orcs just follow orders and were beastly and lacked humanity in Tolkiens books. He took the imaginary creature from earlier folk and fantasy tales though. Tolkien said he took the name from Beowulf (noting the Viking influence here in the context of Ukraine...) and they are referenced in 1860s novels by Charles Kingsley.

Incidentally Tolkien referred to goblins and hobgoblins in the Hobbit which was published in 1937 (i believe that theres only one use of the word orc in the book) but he used orcs in Lord of the Rings which was written between 1937 and 1949 and then published in 1954.

The etymology to the word is dead interesting too. Wiki says:

Its thougt to be closely related to the Old Dutch 'ork' as a "devouring monster"

And in Old English it is thought to come from 'orcneas' which translates as "evil spirits" with orcus "the underworld" + neas "corpses".

It is generally supposed to contain an element -né, cognate to Gothic naus and Old Norse nár, both meaning 'corpse'.

The usual Old English word for corpse is líc, but -né appears in nebbed 'corpse bed', and in dryhtné 'dead body of a warrior', where dryht is a military unit. If *orcné is to be glossed as orcus 'corpse', the meaning may be "corpse from Orcus (i.e. the underworld)", or "devil-corpse", understood as some sort of walking dead monster.

So its very apt in terms of military and death too. Tolkien was very keen and astute on stuff like this and WWII as the clear historical background to this very much frames it as a manifestation and deliberate concept of the hoards of unthinking monsters from the underworld who terrorised the world during wartime.

In that sense its less fantasy and more drawing on the real world.

(I love the nerd shit)

Post goddam it mn!

I love the nerd shit too. Especially when it’s as illuminating as this post.

WeAreTheHeroes · 10/05/2022 11:38

I think we should be careful not to demonise the Russian soldiers on the ground. They are often very young, most probably brainwashed - or at the very least believe what they have been told and lack the education for critical thinking - and we've seen evidence of excessive drinking and, I think, drug taking. They are from dirt poor backgrounds and are being sold down the river for Putin and the Russian leadership's twisted aims. The very fact that the Russian leadership doesn't seem to be repatriating the bodies of its dead is an indicator of this. As well as a sign they don't want the average Russian to know what's really happening.

Does anyone know what happened to the very many bodies of Russian soldiers the Ukrainians recovered after Russian withdrew east? There was something I read on here about refrigerated containers of Russia's dead which Ukraine was trying to return to Russia and their families.

Ijsbear · 10/05/2022 11:46

German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock has arrived in Ukraine on an unannounced trip, the highest-ranking German government official to visit the country since Russia's invasion began on 24 February.

12:01
Civilian death toll 'thousands higher' than initial estimates

Thousands more civilians have been killed in Ukraine since the war began than was previously estimated, the head of the UN human rights monitoring mission in the country has said.

Matilda Bogner said the number of people killed is much higher than the figure initially given of 3,381.

"We have been working on estimates, but all I can say for now is that it is thousands higher than the numbers we have currently given to you," she said at a press briefing in Geneva.

"The big black hole is really Mariupol where it has been difficult for us to fully access and to get fully corroborated information."


www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/05/10/cyberattack-knocks-out-russian-video-platform-rutube-a77630

Name says it - rutube is offline a 2nd day


Kyiv Independent:

Germany may deliver first batch of 100 Marder infantry fighting vehicles to Ukraine in 3 weeks.Arms supplier Rheinmetall CEO Armin Papperger said in an interview that his company is ready to send the Marders to Ukraine but it is waiting for the decision of the federal government, especially since there are also other countries that want this type of vehicle. (my bold)


The Steelworks are still holding out. Rumours of 700 fighters still there and as someone said 100 civilians.


The Lithuanian Seimas has recognized Russia as a terrorist state, and Russia's aggression against Ukraine as genocide Джерело: censor.net/ua/n3340366
The vote was unanimous.


FULL STORY: Kim tells Putin that "strategic and traditional" friendly ties between North Korea and Russia will “strengthen and develop" in a letter congratulating Russia on its Victory Day holiday www.nknews.org/2022/05/kim-jong-un-sends-letter-to-putin-emphasizing-solidarity-with-russia


Darth Putin
@DarthPutinKGB
·
14h
Biden has signed #lendlease for Ukraine. Original was signed March 11, 1941 & provided 1/3 of all Soviet trucks, critical metals, rations & 18200 aircraft (30% of fighter & bombers)

Kruschev & several others quoted Stalin often saying USSR would’ve have lost to Nazis without it


The Moscow Times
@MoscowTimes
·
23m
Russia will not participate in Thursday's special session of the UN Human Rights Council on Ukraine, the Foreign Ministry said.

[deary deary me, how comes that now? is there actually a covert acknowledgement that they really have been behaving like a bunch of murderous shits?]


Mass graves still being found www.politico.com/news/2022/05/09/kyiv-ukraine-russia-war-horrors-00030992


Can't remember if someone posted this already, but an article on how people survived Mariupol zaborona.com/en/the-story-of-one-basement-in-mariupol-how-neighbors-helped-each-other-to-survive-in-unbearable-conditions/

SerendipityJane · 10/05/2022 11:49

Lots of political and economic fallout from the war, in terms of tech I think.

The UK (again) begging to be allowed into Galileo and being told (again) to fuck off doesnt' appear to have made any news. Well not in the UK.

DFOD · 10/05/2022 11:52

There was never an intention by a Russia to repatriate their own dead as they invaded with mobile crematoriums IIRC. And there was a report of 40,000 body bags supplied by the Russias which in those early days seemed outlandish. Not sure if both of those were intended for their own military or Ukrainian military and civilians?

I also believe that the Wagner Group deployed with standard Russian troops to surround Kyiv were responsible for the earlier atrocities. Many of them were killed. Not sure if they are in the East?

Ijsbear · 10/05/2022 11:56

There was a theory about those 40,000 body bags and mobile crematoria that they wre intended for Ukranians who were on a list to be eliminated. Since apparently Russia expected to be greeted with happy roses, that makes sense maybe.

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 11:57

ScrollingLeaves · 10/05/2022 11:21

@RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 10:26
Thank you for this
twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1523278889119854592
That is special.
There is a clear impression imo that Ukrainians are highly artistic, dynamic, innovative and creative - with flair.

I think one of the things I'm taking away from this is the imagine of Ukraine as modern, fresh, innovative and creative. Its light years from the Russian very offensive idea of being little more than peasants working the land.

Yes clearly the farmers (and tractors!) are really important to Ukraine, but I think it utterly shatters the stereotypes that many had. Not just the Russians but also us in Western Europe and North America.

Its a massive generational shift that has been a long time coming, but has hit Ukraine (its still to fully happen in the UK by the way) largely led by political leadership moving to Gen X and beyond.

The music stuff is particularly significant and important to me on a personal level. (Not just Eurovision but beyond that). Its really good to see.

I also note that Zelensky, really has such an amazing understanding of this, in terms of propaganda. Stuff like inviting U2. It might make people laugh and joke about Ukrainians suffering enough already, but there's an important point here. I'm pretty much the same age as Zelensky. U2 were there and were this important international cultural reference point about the Wall falling and the Bosnia war when we were children. We were on separate sides of the wall. You keep seeing this reference point within the messaging to the 1990s and this change. Its the resonnance point. How can we better identify and break down those differences? What do we have in common?

Its globalisation and global community. And one slightly separate from the Anglo-sphere. Its European identity to a point, but does encompass the wider western world. Culture, culture, culture. Shared culture.

All these shared PR messages. Apparently the Ukrainians spent considerable time focusing on national identity points just before addressing individual parliaments to stress and hit on those shared identity points.

Its reoccurant theme in a digital world.

Then Putin stands up and starts talking about traditional values as if he and Russia have this cultural relevance and importance to the West. The Christendom stuff doesn't really cut through too much in Europe - it does more in the US, but even then its competing with the imagery and significance of the iconic cultural status of U2 as well. It doesn't hit the mark, particularly with a younger generation. Putin can try and drive the culture gap wedge, but he's up against powerful stuff that marks our personal historical understanding of the world and development of national identity.

I think its a really revelant point to make this week in terms of Eurovision. Russia always threw the kitchen sink at it. They really thought of it as important. They've had some really good entries in recent years but just missed out for various reasons on winning it. I personally loved Sergey Lazarev - he did two songs: "You Are the Only One" 2016 which came third and "Scream" 2019 which also came third topping the public vote. His staging was brilliant. "A Million Voices" came second in 2015 but got booed in the arena. Their best shot might have been Big Little in 2020 till the contest got pulled due to covid - it was between them and Iceland that year. (FWIW I believe Lazarev posted anti-war stuff at the start of the conflict then pulled or had his social media accounts shut). This stuff MATTERS.

It's in line with how the sports stuff mattered to Russia too. Why drug up to the eye balls if it doesn't? They wanted the cultural influence.

In terms of historical cultural influence, I think I've also had my eyes opened to that too. Stuff that we'd see as 'soviet' or 'russian' but was actually Ukrainian.

It puts Ukraine on the map BEYOND the war. Thats SOOOOO important.

It was already on mine and DH's bucket list of places to go, but its amazing to see how many other people, who perhaps aren't as minded to do strange trips as us, are now keen to visit.

All these refugees across Europe, possibly don't realise their ambassador roles they now unwittingly are creating too. Connections that, even when the war is over, and they may return to Ukraine will continue. And will draw people into Ukraine. Its become somewhere important. In this sense, I think it differs from Bosnia which didn't have this Eurovision style postcard from the Ukrainian Tourist Board to accompany its conflict.

Anyway, enough rambling from me. I have shitloads to do so I can make sure I can fully sit on my arse at 8pm tonight.

DFOD · 10/05/2022 12:04

Ijsbear · 10/05/2022 11:56

There was a theory about those 40,000 body bags and mobile crematoria that they wre intended for Ukranians who were on a list to be eliminated. Since apparently Russia expected to be greeted with happy roses, that makes sense maybe.

But Putin and the military knew that they wouldn’t be greeted with roses - they just fed that line to the young conscripts at the end of their training exercises on the boarder in Belarus to trick them over the line.

TiddyTidTwo · 10/05/2022 12:08

I couldn't agree more Red

I've completely fallen in love with Ukraine and its people from afar! And other Eastern European counties are also now firmly on my radar.

I cannot wait to visit and can tourism as one of their biggest industries in the future.

As for Zelenksy, it makes my blood boil when bots say "comedian". So what? He has a sense of humour, clearly has empathy and intelligence And his leadership strength puts other certain European leaders in the shade.

MagicFox · 10/05/2022 12:12

Great post @RedToothBrush

OP posts:
WeAreTheHeroes · 10/05/2022 12:23

Has any evidence been found of mobile crematoria actually having been deployed by Russia in Ukraine? I don't think it's as simple as saying Russia never intended to repatriate its dead. I think the leadership has a quandary now: repatriate the dead to their families or try to conceal the numbers. It will come out eventually and history shows that those regimes who conceal the numbers to that extent are not good ones with their people in mind.

I'm really looking forward to Eurovision. There's really only the UK that treats it as a joke, but the UK audience now is younger and more open-minded about music from other countries.

QueenOfThorns · 10/05/2022 12:34

I think they could probably hand this year’s Eurovision title to Ukraine right now…

As an aside, I didn’t realise The Rasmus were entering for Finland. I had ‘In the Shadows’ on my playlist for when I went into hospital to have DD, and one of the midwives complimented me on my choice Grin

Back to something relevant, I must admit that I didn’t know just how beautiful Ukraine is, and I quite fancy a visit too, when this is all over.

Natsku · 10/05/2022 12:42

Good post RTB, this has really put Ukraine on the map, and in the hearts of people who probably never thought much about its existence at all before. Very much looking forward to Eurovision, its music and the concept of peace and shared culture in Europe that it represents.

Natsku · 10/05/2022 12:44

(in my exam for my East Asian politics course in Uni I argued for an East Asian song contest like Eurovision to help ease tensions and conflicts and bring unity in the region - got me my best grade in uni!)

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 12:56

marqs AT MarQs__
Over 1,000 Ukrainian soldiers, including hundreds injured, still in Azovstal plant in #Mariupol - #Kyiv via AFP

ScrollingLeaves · 10/05/2022 13:07

@TiddyTidTwo 10/05/2022 12:08
As for Zelenksy, it makes my blood boil when bots say "comedian

More fool them.
Through history and legend the Fools kings kept in their courts were the clever people there to tell them the truth.

It is a shame Putin doesn’t have one.

Ijsbear · 10/05/2022 14:02

Has any evidence been found of mobile crematoria actually having been deployed by Russia in Ukraine?

Stories of them being used in Mariupol. Unsure if that is confirmed.

My sons love Little Big!

It is a shame Putin doesn’t have one.

He'd have shot him or given him toad poison to eat. I don't think the Russian leaders have ever been known for their sense of humour or self-awareness.

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