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Ukraine Invasion: Part 24

1000 replies

MagicFox · 05/05/2022 17:40

Welcome one and all and thanks again to everyone contributing

OP posts:
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33
notimagain · 10/05/2022 07:50

@DesdamonasHandkerchief

Thanks for explanation re the Bob Marley lyrics...now that comment makes sense..

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 08:04

Air superiority. Seems to be a bit of a theme.

Janne M Korhonen AT JMKorhonen
How would the Finnish Defence Forces fare against an invasion from the east? I've been following some Finnish volunteers in Ukraine, and noticed a pattern: they tend to think that Finland is better prepared than Ukraine was. I've translated one thread below.

Here is a Reddit AMA (Ask Me Anything) by an anonymous Finnish volunteer who had been fighting since the beginning of the war, lately near Kharkov. There is no way to corroborate what he is saying, but it fits an overall pattern.

He notes in the thread that he used to be a "pacifist hippie" and has no prior soldiering experience, except the conscript training in the FDF, which he received in the Guards Jaeger Regiment in Helsinki.

He says he was an "urban Jaeger", meaning the training focused on fighting in built-up areas. In pictures, he has the Guards Jaeger Regiment patch in his battle gear. He implies he had civilian paramedic training and now works as a combat medic.

An obvious question many asked is how well the training prepared him for combat. "Only after I got there, I learned to properly appreciate the quality of FDF. I would even argue that the FDF is one of the most cost-effective armies after Israel."

"Finnish conscript training goes a long way here and Finnish reservists are pretty desired in any [ukrainain] unit."

He also notes that the neo-colonialist "War on Terror" has taught many Americans and NATO allies some bad habits. "Americans and other NATO volunteers don't really know how to fight in a war where they don't have complete air superiority."

"Especially at the beginning of the war [foreign volunteers from U.S. and NATO countries] were plentiful, but most left after the first missile and air strikes. A Finnish soldier expects that the enemy has air superiority, and we are trained accordingly."

He is in an independent unit fully manned by Finnish volunteers. Relative to population, he thinks Finns are the most numerous volunteers.

While he acknowledges that what he says sounds jingoistic, he claims the Finnish units are nevertheless among the most efficient foreign volunteer units in the fight.

When asked if he has faith in the FDF's ability to repel an invasion, he says he used to think the Russian army was a threat, but after seeing what a paper tiger it is, he says he has no doubts the FDF would win.

"If Finland received similar material support that Ukraine has received, there would be no Russian unit operational inside Finnish borders within two weeks or so of an invasion."

The Russian morale is terrible. Hence they have to send their officers to the front to get anything done. The most effective way to neutralize a Russian unit is to take out the leadership, which practically disables the rest of the unit.

He also notes that the Russians attack according to rigid schedules, whether that makes sense or not.

His experiences about the Ukrainian military are mixed: their morale is unshakeable, comparable to Finnish morale during the Winter War, and the younger leaders are excellent.

But older ones, trained in the Soviet model, are mostly incompetent (he says he and the unit he is in almost got killed because of one's stupidity). There is also a "shocking" shortage of non-commissioned officers - on both sides.

"A common joke among the Finns here is that if the Ukrainian armed forces had even half of the professionalism the FDF has, we would be now drinking victory coffee in Moscow."

He says they have tried to teach what they know, especially about operating without air superiority, but "sometimes it's been like banging one's head against a wall" and "learning usually requires someone to die first".

He gives as an example: a large "tent village" where the tents were neatly lined up so that the commander could easily find his men. The Finns were obviously horrified and for a week tried to explain that everything needs to be dispersed and hidden under trees.

The commander wouldn't hear of it, and the Finns "did what we do best": went to the forest where they dug deep foxholes and slept in them, without tents.

That was a source of great amusement to other foreign volunteers.

Until a missile strike hit a neighbouring tent village, leaving not many survivors.

Again, I have no way of verifying what he is saying, but I note that the pattern here is familiar from other comments and past experience. Properly done, a conscript-based military can produce effective enough forces.

Thanks to every professional in the FDF for a job well done!

PS. he believes Ukraine will definitely win this war if they just get enough weapons. So keep them coming!

PPS. Many have interpreted this guy's comments as dismissive against the Ukrainians. I don't believe that has been his intention. He is just being Finnish - remember we don't have a word for 'please' :)

In contrast to this and perhaps in parallel with it

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/05/russian-military-air-force-failure-ukraine/629803/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_term=2022-05-09T17%3A22%3A38&utm_content=edit-promo&utm_campaign=the-atlantic

The overlooked reason Russia is floundering

Russia has failed to understand the importance of airpower
(Phillips P OBrien is one of the cowriters)

Basic point here is that Russia under invested in air training for conventional airpower and Ukraine have excellent with modern drone tech.

On this:

Kunal Biswas at kunalbiswas707
The Secret To Turkish UCAV Evading Radars And Engaging AD Assets Is They Have EW Suit Tailor Made For UAV.

Interesting tweet a day after US said something about jamming...

With regards to airpower, this slipping under the radar yesterday

Visegrad24 AT Visegrad24

www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/09/uk-support-countries-supply-russian-jets-ukraine-ben-wallace

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 08:11

Jamming.

See post above which contains key point that Turkey customised its drones for Ukraine with jamming ability.

Then reflect on how the US announced a couple of weeks ago it was sending custom drones (after special requests from Ukraine to meet their criteria) and now is talking about jamming equipment. We know these drones had longer flight capability and were being used under cover of dark - a natural part of being airborne for so long must be an ability to evade detection via not just visual sighting...

Ukrainians know what they want and know what works on the battlefield. US are obliging and deferring to this knowledge and are supplying Ukraine accordingly.

Ijsbear · 10/05/2022 08:24

ÎSW Key Takeaways May 9th

Russian forces did not make any confirmed advances to the southeast or southwest of Izyum on May 9 but are likely attempting to concentrate the forces necessary to resume offensive operations in the coming days.

Russian forces made marginal gains around Severodonetsk in the past 24 hours.

Russian forces are likely continuing to amass troops in Belgorod Oblast to stop Ukrainian counterattacks around Kharkiv City from reaching the Ukrainian-Russian border.

Russian units in Zaporizhia Oblast are regrouping and will likely receive reinforcements from forces previously deployed in Mariupol.

The Kremlin continues to face severe force mobilization challenges, and ongoing “covert mobilization” efforts are unlikely to generate substantial combat power.

Russian authorities are likely setting conditions to integrate occupied Ukrainian territories directly into Russia, as opposed to creating proxy “People’s Republics.”


The Kyiv Independent, [10/05/2022 07:43]
⚡️Pentagon: Sanctions begin to ‘bite’ Russia’s industrial base capabilities.

An unnamed senior U.S. defense official said during a briefing on May 9 that Russia “has blown through a lot of their precision-guided munition” and continues to hit Mariupol with a lot of “dumb bombs.” According to the official, Russia faces difficulties replacing PGMs, and the sanctions and the export controls, particularly when it comes to electronic components, has had an effect on the Russian defense industrial base.


From UkraineNOW

😥In the occupied Izyum, Kharkiv region, 44 bodies of civilians were found under the rubble of a house. Russians destroyed this house in early March. This was announced by the Head of the Kharkiv Regional State Administration Oleg Sinegubov.

Heartbreaking.

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 08:34

Sorry mn seems to have cut off half of my post about slipping under the radar...

Visegrad24 AT Visegrad24
UK Secretary of Defense Ben Wallace has stated that the UK is willing to backfill-lend jets to Poland if the country decides to transfer its 28 MiG-29 fighter jets to Ukraine.^

Poland offered the U.S. a similar deal in February, which was ultimately declined.

Ben Wallace also talked about the future of uk defence and how we needed to focus less on personal and conventional equipment going forward and more on drone tech and capability.

My conclusion was about how interesting this all was to nerds, particularly military nerds and how its probably, contrary to what Philips P OBrien, a reflection that the thing being decisive in this war is less about airpower and more about this modern technological advance in the combination of guerrilla warfare and technological capability and production advancing tactics. Ukraine are adapting and being more flexible as a result.

Also worth putting in the context of that tweet yesterday about how Russia didn't invest in drone tech, had a limited number, doesn't seem to have been able to source more for elsewhere and apparently seemed to run out of them in mid April.

And they had 'bad weather' yesterday.

prettybird · 10/05/2022 08:34

@TargusEasting - all three of your links in the early hours of the morning worked for me - although the 2nd two linked to a page in Russian and I don't know how to use Google Translate on my phone Confused

Natsku · 10/05/2022 08:38

TargusEasting · 10/05/2022 05:55

I am travelling shortly so signing out for 24 hours. But I will leave this for @Natsku and other Finnish posters to comment on. I have emboldened some comments.

"Highly likely" Finland will apply for NATO membership, Finnish minister says
From CNN's Jennifer Hansler

It is “highly likely” that Finland will apply for membership in NATO, said the Finnish minister for European affairs.

Speaking to CNN on Monday, Tytti Tuppurainen said the decision has not yet been made, but called the nation’s likely membership “a very natural response” to Russia’s war in Ukraine. She added that if her country does indeed apply, she hopes “the ratification process would be as brief as possible.”

“We would, of course, prefer to have a neighborhood that would have been founded on friendship and cooperation,” she said. “But it is Russia that has distanced itself from the security order and it is Russia that has started war in Europe. It is Russia that has invaded in Ukraine. Now, people see this new reality and the time has come to join NATO.”

On Thursday, Finnish President Sauli Niinistö is expected to give his personal opinion about whether to pursue NATO membership, which is expected to be followed by a statement by Prime Minister Sanna Marin.

Impending decision: Tuppurainen told CNN that most of the country’s political parties have already discussed the issue. The Social Democrats — Marin and Tuppurainen's party — will gather on Saturday to make their decision, which will be guided by Marin’s announcement.

“Now that the leader of the country is about to make the decision regarding the NATO application, we can say with good arguments that the whole country is ready for this,” Tuppurainen said, noting the strong public support in Finland for joining the defensive alliance.

Message to Moscow: Russia has warned it will respond if Finland – with which it shares a more than 800 mile border – joins NATO.

The Kremlin does not dictate our decisions,” Tuppurainen told CNN, adding it would be “in the best interest of Russia to behave like an adult in this situation.”
“We've seen now what kind of a country Russia is and what kind of a regime it has. It has a ruthless dictator as leader,” she said.

“We are no longer under any kind of illusions what he's up to ... and we know now that he can wage a war that is as despicable and ruthless and brutal as one can imagine.”
^^
Finland has been a longtime partner of NATO, something that US and NATO officials have pointed to in voicing support for the nation’s membership if it chooses to apply.

@TargusEasting I reckon now that Finland will be sending in its application by the end of next week at the latest now that the Left Alliance has said they won't leave the government if they send the application in (previously they said they will, which would have lost the government 16 seats bringing them uncomfortable close the the number of seats of the opposition. Not good) and Niinistö and Marin most likely declaring support this week, and the biggest government party most likely declaring support after their party conference end of the week. Only a few Left Alliance MPs have been speaking out against joining NATO, they are far in the minority so its a sure thing I think.

But there's lots of talk about preparing for Russian response. They're working on fences on the border, at the critical areas, in case of a hybrid attack (sending hordes of refugees over all at once) and reserve training has been stepped up. My BIL actually took a teaching job with the military recently, the very last job I could imagine him in, because as a Jaegar in the reserves he'd be on the front line but a teaching position would keep him away from there! He runs virtual wargames for reservists who haven't had training in a long time (can't just send them straight into the field for training if its been 20 years or so since their conscript days). He said that if my OH ever gets called for training, then that means the situation is very serious (he's never been called back for training)

notimagain · 10/05/2022 08:42

We can only speculate here but it's a fair bet the high end military drones have been designed for years to be as "low observable" as possible right across the electromagnetic spectrum.

At the other end of the scale a lot of people were commenting (certainly early on in the war) on the amount of footage coming from the Ukraine side that seemed to have been sourced from common or garden DJI type drones...Excellent devices for a small infantry/anti-tank unit and pretty much impossible to see and hear if operated above a few hundred feet altitude.

There were however concerns expressed that a canny opposition with fairly basic electronic warfare equipment would quickly find ways of interfering with those "hobby" drones and /or locating the operator.

Probably just as well the Russians don't appear to be that canny.....

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 10/05/2022 08:50

I think the Russians are about as far from canny as it's possible to be 😄 I was wondering why people call them Orcs, but it's definitely accurate.

After seeing Putrid's lacklustre performance and defeated looking demeanour yesterday I'm feeling more optimistic this morning. I think it was beyond what we could have hoped for in terms of learning just how much this is getting to him and how it's obvious he knows he's bitten off more than he can chew.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 10/05/2022 08:59

Something else to cheer us up...

twitter.com/Ukraine/status/1523574072990261248?t=3TvZulwkDyWiMoE_DeQbKg&s=19

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 10/05/2022 09:00

I think the orc name is to do with the unthinking brutality of the individual Russian soldiers.
I get the impression the Lord of the Rings films are popular in Ukraine. I watched the first one on Saturday night with one of my guests (I had never seen it but he rewatches it regularly). It was…resonant.

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 10/05/2022 09:03

Those parodies are hilarious 😂

BarrowInFurnessRailwayStation · 10/05/2022 09:04

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 10/05/2022 09:00

I think the orc name is to do with the unthinking brutality of the individual Russian soldiers.
I get the impression the Lord of the Rings films are popular in Ukraine. I watched the first one on Saturday night with one of my guests (I had never seen it but he rewatches it regularly). It was…resonant.

Oh I never knew that.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 10/05/2022 09:10

@Natsku what is the general feeling about Russia's potential response? People must be feeling anxious? Is there a feeling that they will be better protected even though they are prodding the beast?

Natsku · 10/05/2022 09:27

I don't think there's that much anxiety any more, to begin with yeah, but now I think the general feeling is fed up of Russia's threats and that we'd be more secure in NATO, and a general determination to be prepared for all possible responses. With the exception of a lot of the Left Alliance types, who keep trying to steer public conversation against NATO by spreading fear (along with a hefty load of whataboutism - just today one person told me that he would say NATO is more responsible for the war in Ukraine than Russia. Twat. But he's not a Finn anyway.)

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 09:52

Orcs just follow orders and were beastly and lacked humanity in Tolkiens books. He took the imaginary creature from earlier folk and fantasy tales though. Tolkien said he took the name from Beowulf (noting the Viking influence here in the context of Ukraine...) and they are referenced in 1860s novels by Charles Kingsley.

Incidentally Tolkien referred to goblins and hobgoblins in the Hobbit which was published in 1937 (i believe that theres only one use of the word orc in the book) but he used orcs in Lord of the Rings which was written between 1937 and 1949 and then published in 1954.

The etymology to the word is dead interesting too. Wiki says:

Its thougt to be closely related to the Old Dutch 'ork' as a "devouring monster"

And in Old English it is thought to come from 'orcneas' which translates as "evil spirits" with orcus "the underworld" + neas "corpses".

It is generally supposed to contain an element -né, cognate to Gothic naus and Old Norse nár, both meaning 'corpse'.

The usual Old English word for corpse is líc, but -né appears in nebbed 'corpse bed', and in dryhtné 'dead body of a warrior', where dryht is a military unit. If *orcné is to be glossed as orcus 'corpse', the meaning may be "corpse from Orcus (i.e. the underworld)", or "devil-corpse", understood as some sort of walking dead monster.

So its very apt in terms of military and death too. Tolkien was very keen and astute on stuff like this and WWII as the clear historical background to this very much frames it as a manifestation and deliberate concept of the hoards of unthinking monsters from the underworld who terrorised the world during wartime.

In that sense its less fantasy and more drawing on the real world.

(I love the nerd shit)

Post goddam it mn!

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 09:55

Oh and the whole concept of orcs in Lotr itself is they are supposed to be another race corrupted and tortured by dark magic.

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 10:26

Going off at a slight tangent. Eurovision Semi Final starts tonight. Ukraine are hot favs (not purely on sympathy, their song has genuine merit).

Anyway, seeing as we've had a fair amount of music in the last couple of threads, I wanted to share this. I believe its a member of the Azov in the Mariupol bunker. Its haunting:

https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1523278889119854592

Its a violin version of Duncan Lawrence's winner 'Arcade'. 'All I know, is loving you is a losing game'...

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 10:28

Also being reported this morning that it seems there are still 100 civilians in the steelworks at Mariupol.

I am wondering if the confusion relates to wounded and whether its possible many of those left are unable to easily leave.

But thats kind of tougher news after the belief that all the citizens had got out.

blueshoes · 10/05/2022 10:42

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 10:26

Going off at a slight tangent. Eurovision Semi Final starts tonight. Ukraine are hot favs (not purely on sympathy, their song has genuine merit).

Anyway, seeing as we've had a fair amount of music in the last couple of threads, I wanted to share this. I believe its a member of the Azov in the Mariupol bunker. Its haunting:

https://twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1523278889119854592

Its a violin version of Duncan Lawrence's winner 'Arcade'. 'All I know, is loving you is a losing game'...

The violin performance made me tear a little. The heart aches for Ukraine's liberation.

RedToothBrush · 10/05/2022 10:47

Shashank Joshi AT shashj
Macron “warned that while Europe was now helping Ukraine, there would come a point when Moscow and Kyiv would sue for peace and at that point neither side should be humiliated or excluded as had happened to Germany in 1918.”

Andrew Lilico AT andrew_lilico
There is no result that leaves Ukraine sovereign & intact that is not a humiliation for Moscow.

I agree with both comments.

The trouble is they aren't compatible, whilst Putin remains. Its that simple. Putin MUST go to find a way forward.

notimagain · 10/05/2022 10:52

Apologies for only belatedly spotting this comment posted above..

"Ben Wallace also talked about the future of uk defence and how we needed to focus less on personal and conventional equipment going forward and more on drone tech and capability."

I think many would take issue with the "less" in that.

It's way too early to start concluding we (UK and others) need to focus (aka "spend') less on personal and conventional equipment.

The reality is "drone tech" isn't fighting the war all by itself..it's an add on, a significant force multiplier that has assisted the personnel and conventional equipment...

ScrollingLeaves · 10/05/2022 10:56

Thank you @TargusEasting
and @RedToothBrush @Ijsbear
for all your information this morning, technical and otherwise.

The Finns knowledge about something as simple as knowing to hide in the woods rather than in obvious, serried marching-style rows of tents is interesting.

That is fascinating about the meaning and derivation of “Orcs”.
The onomatopoeia alone is effective with its grunty only half - human sound. What a wealth of poetic summing up goes into the short word.

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