Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine Invasion: Part 23

1003 replies

MagicFox · 28/04/2022 17:24

Welcome all, thanks for the company

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
TargusEasting · 29/04/2022 13:19

RedToothBrush · 29/04/2022 13:13

Na. They'd have done it anyway.

x2

OwlsDance · 29/04/2022 13:19

So Russia is talking about partnership with Iran and Russia potentially investing in Iran's oil industry. I wonder if it's just shit stirring from Russia to get Iran sanctioned further and reduce global oil supply? I mean, why would you help your competition?

Ijsbear · 29/04/2022 13:20

@notimagain well, lets see if it's confirmed from another source ...

Half the pundits seem to say the war will drag on, lots of others seem to say that this is almost a last gasp. There are a lot of armaments washing around the middle east that could be taken to Ukraine.

What seems depressing is that the oil and gas embargos are achieving nothing. Gazprom's profits are huge now.

Ijsbear · 29/04/2022 13:23

OwlsDance · 29/04/2022 13:19

So Russia is talking about partnership with Iran and Russia potentially investing in Iran's oil industry. I wonder if it's just shit stirring from Russia to get Iran sanctioned further and reduce global oil supply? I mean, why would you help your competition?

Extending influence may be more important than money atm (and see prev comments on gazprom's profits). Plus as said there's a lot of military stuff floating around in the ME so Russia might be able to get some from Iran, since Iraq is not a threat to Iran now.

Russia's been working on the ME and Africa for years now.

The West really fucked up in the ME.

OwlsDance · 29/04/2022 13:27

Ijsbear · 29/04/2022 13:20

@notimagain well, lets see if it's confirmed from another source ...

Half the pundits seem to say the war will drag on, lots of others seem to say that this is almost a last gasp. There are a lot of armaments washing around the middle east that could be taken to Ukraine.

What seems depressing is that the oil and gas embargos are achieving nothing. Gazprom's profits are huge now.

Yes but war is very expensive business. Also the full effect of sanctions on economy won't be felt for another ciupme if months, so they'll have to put a lot of resources to try and keep it afloat at some point.

Russia is pouring a lot if resources to keep up the rouble exchange rate as well. They'll have to abandon this strategy at some point as well.

OwlsDance · 29/04/2022 13:27

Couple*

TargusEasting · 29/04/2022 13:34

strawberriesarenot · 29/04/2022 12:44

I see the UN are saying this horrible war could go on for years.
A few weeks ago we were being told Russia would run out of munitions in weeks, and that financial sanctions would cripple the Russian economy.
Where has Russia found this new strength to continue?

Don't listen to soundbites or stories that say David will win over Goliath quickly. Russia has a vast army. It has 18,000 tank, artillery and rocket systems. Even if 40-50% is inoperable due to waste and pilfering, there is still a lot of kit to come to the front. I have seen recent pictures of some modern kit and well disciplined crew still inside Russia. It is going to be a slog in the Donbas and could be similar to the Iran/Iraq war in intensity. The Kremlin's propaganda is whipping young Russians into an intense oxygen injection into the fire. The UA needs to be restocked with munitions and kit constantly. There needs to be a regular concerted flow to the borders and into Ukraine. Air defences will need to be strengthened.

What will bring this war to a close is a collapse of Russian morale. Nothing else will do that really in my view. I could be wrong of course.

I have heard this morning some testimonies from Russian soldiers and call intercepts that suggest the war is becoming an eye-opener for many of them. I am not going to post them on here as it will be too harrowing. If the Russian people knew how little their commanders thought of their young men the army would revolt tomorrow.

TargusEasting · 29/04/2022 13:39

Some good news

censor.net/en/photo_news/3337633/musk_sends_tesla_powerwall_energy_saving_systems_to_ukraine_foto

And

www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/4/29/ukraines-zelensky-russias-putin-invited-to-g20-summit

Now all we want is Putin to attend and perhaps he would also take Elon up on his fisticuffs challenge from back in February.

notimagain · 29/04/2022 13:47

Ijsbear · 29/04/2022 13:20

@notimagain well, lets see if it's confirmed from another source ...

Half the pundits seem to say the war will drag on, lots of others seem to say that this is almost a last gasp. There are a lot of armaments washing around the middle east that could be taken to Ukraine.

What seems depressing is that the oil and gas embargos are achieving nothing. Gazprom's profits are huge now.

I've seen the F-16 comment posted verbatim elsewhere but TBH at this stage I'm maintaining a very high degree of ๐Ÿค”about it.

Certainly supplying F-16s and similar directly to the Ukrainian Air Force has been ruled out publicly by the US Government on several occasions and I've not heard of any change to that policy ( may have missed it).

If it's being done on the quiet, perhaps by somebody other than the US Gov, then I'm all for it, but if that's going on I really really wouldn't expect anybody involved to be tweeting about it...

I guess we will see.

prettybird · 29/04/2022 13:49

@TheABC - no, they don't have enough bodies to win - but they're prepared to sacrifice them anyway. That's why they're digging (literally Sad) for a long war of attrition - hoping that the "West" will give up on its support of Ukraine. Sad

BringBackCoffeeCreams · 29/04/2022 13:54

Ijsbear · 29/04/2022 12:23

Euromaiden claiming that a marine commander has been assassinated.

Euromaidan PR
EuromaidanPR
ยท
54m
In Mariupol, the commander of the reconnaissance unit of the 810th Marine Brigade of the Black Sea Fleet of russia with the rank of captain, a certain Aleksey Okhota, was assassinated.
PR

One for Notimagain:
ยท
4h
11 Ukrainian pilots are currently taking F-16 training courses. "It is just a pleasure to operate such a machine! Absolutely new philosophy of flight, incredible avionics, everything the pilot may need," says one of the #Ukrainian pilots.

What do they mean by 'assassinated'. Obviously dead, but why use that word as opposed to 'killed'?

RedToothBrush · 29/04/2022 14:04

Matt Goodwin AT GoodwinMJ
"Should Britain allow people fleeing persecution or war to come & live in Britain?" "should allow more"
Jan 2020 - 24%
Jun 2020 - 26%
Dec 2020 - 26%
May 2021 - 28%
Nov 2021 - 30%
Apr 2022 - 40%
YouGov tracker

RedToothBrush · 29/04/2022 14:16

https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/us-news/2022/04/28/war-seasoned-syrian-doctors-lend-a-hand-in-ukraine/
Veteran Syrian war doctors put skills to use in Ukraine conflict
Syrian physicians all too familiar with Russian aggression rushed to Kyiv, Kharkiv and Lviv to offer medical expertise and chemical weapons training

Reliving the experience in Ukraine was traumatic but necessary, he explained.
โ€œWe donโ€™t want Ukraine to become another Syria,โ€ he said.
โ€œWe owe a debt for all those on the outside who came to our help in Syria. Now we must help too.โ€

RedToothBrush · 29/04/2022 14:21

Mark Hertling AT MarkHertling
A few weeks ago, as the "new phase" was being discussed, I suggested we should look for a couple things happening in the east and south of Ukraine. We're very early in that new phase & there are indicators those things are happening. Let's review what we should see.

First, let's talk the Russian army (RU from here out). RU has attempted to regenerate the forces mauled in the 1st phase. If they follow their doctrine, regeneration usually means new personnel, repair/exchange of equipment, resupply, rest & likely a lot of new leaders.

Given the time & desire of Putin to have a May victory, it's likely little of that happened. RU likely has either low-strength units, several units consolidated into one, or units poorly manned. Reports indicate 2-man tank crews (3 needed) & BMP w/ few infantry in back.

What RU has done is reinforce with lots (repeat, LOTS) of tube and rocket artillery. That is according to RU doctrine. To penetrate an enemy's defense, RU uses mass artillery barrages all along the front. They've been doing that. And it is deadly.

There's two ways to counter massive artillery strikes. 1. Get out from under it (giving up land) 2. Conduct counterfire with your own artillery after pinpointing the enemy's guns with radar.

While Ukraine's army (UA from here out) have some Russian 152 mm cannons, and they are receiving LOTS of guns (155 mm cannons) from the US & NATO, there's 2 problems.
1. UA is running low on 152 (Russian) ammo
2. The western guns/ammo ain't there yet.

Yeah, yeah, I know AT PentagonPresSec said the guns/radars are arriving fast, and some are already there. But they're not all at the front, with the ammo, just yet. Things just don't magically move to the front & get into the fight immediately in combat.

A seque: during combat our division fielded MRAPs (mine-resisted ambush protective) trucks, due to an increased IED threat. Trucks. Not hard to learn. Not hard to drive. No triggers to pull. It took us awhile. Fact: fielding ANY new equipment to units in combat takes time.

So there will be counterfire fights between RU and UA, but it might be awhile. So UA has to give up ground. When they do that, the RU will send in "reconnaissance in force" or RFI. Small combat units to take limited objectives in multiple places.

That's what we're seeing now in several locations in the east & south. Lots of Russian artillery barrages against the front line, followed by smaller RU combat units attempting to seize terrain/cities/critical objectives. RU artillery is working. The RU maneuver forces are undermanned, not well supplied, not well led, are on ground they're not familiar with, and they don't do maneuver all that well. So we're seeing RU forces temporarily take ground, then being pushed back by the smart, better led, more adaptive active defense of the UA.

Finally...we're about 7-10 days (at best) into this second phase. It will go for awhile. New forces are feeling each other out in the east. RU will initially outgun with arty, then it may become a big arty duel. But UA maneuver force will outperform the RU.

Igotjelly · 29/04/2022 14:34

Nuclear risk low

quite insightful and, I think, fairly comforting.

MagicFox · 29/04/2022 14:43

"Nuclear risk low, but he might do it" ๐Ÿ‘Œ Thanks Joe!

No, it is good @Igotjelly and I have found JC really good on the nuclear risk from the off

OP posts:
Igotjelly · 29/04/2022 14:49

MagicFox · 29/04/2022 14:43

"Nuclear risk low, but he might do it" ๐Ÿ‘Œ Thanks Joe!

No, it is good @Igotjelly and I have found JC really good on the nuclear risk from the off

Agree. I think there is this perception that as soon as even the smallest sniff of a nuclear weapon is deployed that it would be game over for everyone. His analysis, probably correctly, shows its far more nuanced than that. Obviously any use of any WMD is absolutely unthinkable and everything must be done to prevent it but I personally find it comforting that somewhere someone far cleverer than me is planning for the eventuality that it happens and around how it can be contained.

ScrollingLeaves · 29/04/2022 15:25

This account from some people of Mariupol, and from people who worked at the steel plant, highlights the tragedy of its loss.

Even though it is an industrial city it was loved by residents and in recent years had been enhanced with green spaces, cleaner water and cultural interests. Maybe a bit like Liverpool?

One man collecting bodies in return for rations says he thought they had filled two truck loads from one street alone. Another said his bombed flat was do looted even childrenโ€™s toys were stolen.

www.cnn.com/2022/04/28/europe/mariupol-azovstal-steel-plant-intl-cmd/index.html
amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/04/28/europe/mariupol-azovstal-steel-plant-intl-cmd/index.html

TargusEasting · 29/04/2022 15:44

Igotjelly · 29/04/2022 14:34

Nuclear risk low

quite insightful and, I think, fairly comforting.

Spot on I think. I can foresee a situation where a nuclear exchange could be followed by an agreement not to escalate, quickly followed by a conventional war. While theoretically possible, if you assume Russia would lose then the nuclear option - of a second strike - is back on the table again. Having worked out all their pieces are taken with only a King left on the board, hopefully the Kremlin will have done their homework and realised there is only one option.

Withdraw. To play again another day. In this respect, the 'North Korea II' scenario in one of RTB's posts some 7 or 8 threads back.

alexander2001 · 29/04/2022 16:00

I read that and was horrified!

Surely Russia needs to know that use of Nuclear will result in all out nuclear war and hence the destruction of everyone?

Its only this that will stop Putin (or anyone else) using Nukes... once we start talking of "well we wouldn't necessarily respond in kind" we are looking at idiots thinking they can win a nuclear war.

ShinyHat22 · 29/04/2022 16:05

Jesus Christ, how has it come to this?

Ijsbear · 29/04/2022 16:24

ShinyHat22 · 29/04/2022 16:05

Jesus Christ, how has it come to this?

Some haunted, driven old man without any ghost of a conscience bullied, bribed and manipulated his way to the top.

Life and the world is not secure.

Wasn't it Socrates who said "accept anything that can happen, can happen to you?"

ShinyHat22 · 29/04/2022 16:28

I donโ€™t expect iron clad security guarantees, but the current situation is so hard to come to terms with.

TargusEasting · 29/04/2022 16:30

twitter.com/ThreshedThought/status/1519944102560808960

A bit too bullish for my liking, but it does back up some of Hertling's comments up thread about operational ground movements. I am sceptical about usurping Crimea also or redrawing the lines. We are 8 years into this war in reality.

Ijsbear · 29/04/2022 16:42

Samuel Ramani
SamRamani2
Ukraine has reportedly taken over Ruska Lozova If confirmed, its a big development, as it could disrupt Russia's ability to strike Kharkiv and supply movements from Belgorod

Great! Now can someone explain why itโ€™s a great development?

Tawanda
tmsalexa61
ยท
47m
It sits on the main highway into Kharkiv from Belgorod, Russia - Russian supply lines will be distupted..

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.