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Ukraine Invasion: Part 23

1003 replies

MagicFox · 28/04/2022 17:24

Welcome all, thanks for the company

OP posts:
Thread gallery
31
Wrongkindofovercoat · 30/04/2022 21:39

@Ijsbear Why does it matter if it is a civil war or an invasion ? The two are often seen as the same thing for parts of a population. The Balkan civil war saw some of the worst atrocities to occur in Europe since the end of WWII, all the things that @TiddyTidTwo mentioned and more.

TiddyTidTwo · 30/04/2022 21:56

I've watched a video of the same in Syria. Russian backed troops of people hands tied their backs being pushed into a mass grave then shot. I won't share it on here. But I watched it and knew that's what's happening in Ukraine right now. We've seen the graves in Bucha. Wait until you see it all in those Russian occupied cities when they're eventually cleared out.

Ijsbear · 30/04/2022 21:59

I honestly think that Crimea is more .. debatable.

but there's no debate about what's happening now. That's black and white.

ScrollingLeaves · 30/04/2022 22:12

”The Long Breakup” is a biographical and historical documentary film by Katya Soldak, a Ukrainian born and living in Kharkiv throughout the late 1970s through to the end of the Soviet Union.She had roots through her grandmother to Russia and spent summers there; and she had been also been a Young Communist throughout her youth.

As a young adult she was a journalist when Ukrainian identity was asserting itself. She then went to America and works at Forbes Magazine, writing about Eastern Europe. She returned to Ukraine frequently to see her family, interview people and document events. This 2020 film gives an overview of the way modern Ukraine emerged from the Soviet Union, and the events leading to the election of Zelensky.

I think it portrays a sweep of history through her own and her family and friends’ experiences, and also give insights into the tensions felt between the Russian and Ukrainian identities.

www.arte.tv/en/videos/108340-000-A/the-long-breakup/

Ijsbear · 30/04/2022 22:14

Wrongkindofovercoat · 30/04/2022 21:39

@Ijsbear Why does it matter if it is a civil war or an invasion ? The two are often seen as the same thing for parts of a population. The Balkan civil war saw some of the worst atrocities to occur in Europe since the end of WWII, all the things that @TiddyTidTwo mentioned and more.

When it's a civil war it's within the boundaries of the same country. Getting involved in a civil war as an outside player is a very dangerous thing.

You have to weigh up your right to get involved which is not as clear cut as an outside invasion. You have to weigh up if you can achieve anything or if you will end up in a mess, as with Afghanistan.

You have to consider as well whether the accusations of Imperialism which will be levelled at you would to some degree be justified.

Syria was a very difficult one but the West went in already in the first Iraq war (clear invasion of Kuwait); the 2nd Iraq which was proven to be without foundation, and Afghanistan. It's involved itself in Iran through sanctions. Look what damage the 2nd Iraq war did to Western credibility and that was a direct invasion, not a cry for defense from Kuwait. A lot of the MIddle East see the West as aggressors and invaders and I can see why.

(someone please correct me if I've made any mistakes!).

You have to be very, very careful involving yourself in other people's wars especially civil ones. Firstly you have to assess if there's a reasonable chance of winning and then you have to think should you involve yourself and thirdly you need to think of the consequences.

Up to some degree it's partly the responsibility of the other countries in a region to handle conflict though any country should offer their help to negotiate peace, imo.

This is not black and white, mind you. But getting involved in any and all wars is 1) impossible and 2) very unwise.

Player456 · 30/04/2022 22:21

@MagicFox The Twitter screenshot you shared was indeed from training for the 9th May Victory Parade in St. Petersburg, but it wasn't from today/this year, it was in fact from 2019, I found a webpage for it, it is in Russian, but I translated it to English.

prostopasha1914.livejournal.com/397922.html

MagicFox · 30/04/2022 22:23

Wow thanks @Player456 - this really goes to show that you can't trust everything we're consuming at face value! Mind you, it's still a totally weird gaffe!

OP posts:
Hillsmakeyoustrong · 30/04/2022 22:29

@ScrollingLeaves I shall watch this!

Wrongkindofovercoat · 30/04/2022 22:34

You have to be very, very careful involving yourself in other people's wars especially civil ones. Firstly you have to assess if there's a reasonable chance of winning and then you have to think should you involve yourself and thirdly you need to think of the consequences.

I also think that 'is their enemy our enemy' a question that will be asked ? Whilst we don't see Russia or its people as our enemy per se, there is a lot of history there isn't there ?

TiddyTidTwo · 30/04/2022 22:37

Iraq and Afghanistan was a mistake and we fucked up. No two ways about it.

Ukraine is not a civil war. It's an invasion of a European sovereign democracy. We should not have turned our cheek to the annexation of crimea. But we did and it's bitten us on the arse.

It needs sorting out now. Ukraine cannot fall and we are backing Ukraine to the hilt now hoping they will defeat Putin. If it looks like Ukraine can't do it then we will step in as the alternative isn't acceptable.

RedToothBrush · 30/04/2022 22:38

Netblocks AT Netblocks
Confirmed: #Kherson in occupied south Ukraine is now in the midst of a near-total internet blackout; real-time network data show the loss of service on multiple providers as one company says incident is "unfortunately not an accident"

Tim White AT TWMCltd
Hmmm, why would this have happened?
What's going on they don't want people to tell the world about in occupied #Kherson?

Something happening tonight.

Either Russia is doing something it does not want the world to know about or the big Ukrainian offensive which has been speculated about is happening.

Either is anxiety producing. Watch Kherson. Something is up.

RedToothBrush · 30/04/2022 22:42

Anyone who thinks what is happening in Ukraine is a civil war is either illiterate on military terms and their meeting. Or is a pro Russian stooge who believes the shite about brothers like Macron and that the Soviet Union still exists. And they are illiterate about self determination, democracy and the last 30 years of history.

Both explanations make the person making the comment about civil war look stupid.

blueshoes · 30/04/2022 22:44

RedToothBrush · 30/04/2022 22:38

Netblocks AT Netblocks
Confirmed: #Kherson in occupied south Ukraine is now in the midst of a near-total internet blackout; real-time network data show the loss of service on multiple providers as one company says incident is "unfortunately not an accident"

Tim White AT TWMCltd
Hmmm, why would this have happened?
What's going on they don't want people to tell the world about in occupied #Kherson?

Something happening tonight.

Either Russia is doing something it does not want the world to know about or the big Ukrainian offensive which has been speculated about is happening.

Either is anxiety producing. Watch Kherson. Something is up.

Praying for Kherson. Hoping for another miracle for Ukraine.

Xenia · 30/04/2022 22:48

It is very simple. Ukraine is a sovereign nation and Russia has invaded it. There are no nuances around that. It is clear. The law is clear. Nor should Russia be in Crimea which is part of Ukraine. If we don't stop Russia others parts of Europe including Poland could follow. If we want to retain Western democracy we need to help Ukraine even more with weapons to stand up to Russia.

However I support the right of people to peddle any other agenda or express any different views. That is one reason we are different from states like Russia, China, North Korea - we allow freedom of expression.

Ijsbear · 30/04/2022 22:48

Wrongkindofovercoat · 30/04/2022 22:34

You have to be very, very careful involving yourself in other people's wars especially civil ones. Firstly you have to assess if there's a reasonable chance of winning and then you have to think should you involve yourself and thirdly you need to think of the consequences.

I also think that 'is their enemy our enemy' a question that will be asked ? Whilst we don't see Russia or its people as our enemy per se, there is a lot of history there isn't there ?

There is, thanks to the Cold War. I am so so sad that the hope, the joy at the fall of the Berlin Wall has evaporated into ... this.

I think we need to be careful how hard we push consumerism and free trade in the future. As my companion says, when the Wall fell West Germany businessmen came into the East, ransacked and took everything of value and left a lot of East Germans with no job and little security. People need security to be happy. The West should have gone in to help and build up the security that the Soviet empire provided, not made the situation worse.

The 1990's seem to have been a disaster for Russia and its outlook.

Ijsbear · 30/04/2022 22:49

RedToothBrush · 30/04/2022 22:42

Anyone who thinks what is happening in Ukraine is a civil war is either illiterate on military terms and their meeting. Or is a pro Russian stooge who believes the shite about brothers like Macron and that the Soviet Union still exists. And they are illiterate about self determination, democracy and the last 30 years of history.

Both explanations make the person making the comment about civil war look stupid.

was that aimed at me? blinks

Player456 · 30/04/2022 22:57

@MagicFox It shows which way Putin was going, even back then! Makes a mockery of trying to 'denazify' Ukraine.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 30/04/2022 23:22

RedToothBrush · 30/04/2022 22:38

Netblocks AT Netblocks
Confirmed: #Kherson in occupied south Ukraine is now in the midst of a near-total internet blackout; real-time network data show the loss of service on multiple providers as one company says incident is "unfortunately not an accident"

Tim White AT TWMCltd
Hmmm, why would this have happened?
What's going on they don't want people to tell the world about in occupied #Kherson?

Something happening tonight.

Either Russia is doing something it does not want the world to know about or the big Ukrainian offensive which has been speculated about is happening.

Either is anxiety producing. Watch Kherson. Something is up.

Yes. We failed to get medicines in there today. Could have been logistics but I wasn't told the details. But it was the first time.

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 30/04/2022 23:33

Unlikely @Ijsbear as you were not calling the war in Ukraine a civil war. You were explaining, very eloquently, why it isnt always wise to get involved in a civil war.

Ijsbear · 30/04/2022 23:39

oh, ok. No, Ukraine is as clear cut as it gets and if he isn't stopped, Putin will only be encouraged.

The devastation is heartbreaking.

ScrollingLeaves · 01/05/2022 00:21

@blueshoes · 30/04/2022 20:02

“Ijsbear
a pro-Ukraine site is saying that too scrolling, though they say 20”

Good news about the 20+ evacuees from the Mariupol steel plant. I didn't think it would happen but that is a small miracle in itself. I hope they actually got out into Ukrainian safety as opposed to kidnapped to a Russian filtration camp.

Yes, let us hope. It is such good news, though there are so many more.

Al Jazeera tonight showed one of the Azovstal soldiers speaking about it, and he too said they hoped they would go to Zaporizhia not Russia.

( Sorry, if someone posted that already. Just catching up.)

ScrollingLeaves · 01/05/2022 00:41

@Ijsbear · 30/04/2022 21:23
yes @MMBaranova your perspective is really helpful

As was @Mb76's comment. It must be very hard for you, Mb76. I hope your family are safe.

I missed @Mb76 ’s comment and just tried to find it through ‘search’. I then got the whole of “Ukraine Invasion 23”. Is the only way of finding it by scrolling through every page?

Onceuponatimeinalandfaraway · 01/05/2022 01:08

RedToothBrush · 28/04/2022 22:40

An MP writes to the Russian Embassy

Sorry I’m way behind and catching up but I couldn’t let this go without comment. I got a shock that it was Lee complaining about not being on the list. He and crackden Ben are vile horrid individuals who regularly stir local hatred and racists. Now I wonder if crack den is left of that list too, I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find they were potins friends. Sadly it currently looks like both have retained their popularity and even strategic voting is unlikely to get rid :-(

ScrollingLeaves · 01/05/2022 01:11

@Mb76 · 30/04/2022 17:57

“ScrollingLeaves
This is a fascinating account 2017 by Katya Soldak of her childhood and adolescence in Kharkiv under the USSR up until the 1990s.

It really shows how this era in Russian history is hardly past; and also the extraordinary difference between their lives then, and ours.

www.forbes.com/sites/katyasoldak/2017/12/20/this-is-how-propaganda-works-a-look-inside-a-soviet-childhood/“

Fascinating, thank you for sharing. I could have written this article myself, my childhood was identical, I believe I am also the same age as the author. I’m from Donetsk. Even my nursery new year celebration photos look identical to that shared in the article.

Someone asked why there seems to be such nostalgia from the older generation about “the good old days in the USSR” - this article explains it well. People’s lives were predictable and everyone was more or less the same. There was security in that. When Soviet Union collapsed that security was taken away and many of the older gene ever got over it. They are the ones who worship putin, still.

@Mb76 thank you for contributing your own insight. It seems understandable that some of the older generation cling to what they knew and what had made them feel secure. I am glad what Katie Soldak wrote resonates with your own experience - that it was not a simply superficial magazine article.

I so pray that if you are there now, or if any of your family is, you are and they are all right.

RedToothBrush · 01/05/2022 04:34

From a wet tent at 4am i give you this

Canadian Ukrainian Volunteer AT CanadianUkrain1
Ukrainian Military Intelligence just stated that they believe Russian plans to create the "Republic of Kherson" will be thwarted by local Resistance.

I guess they've read the report.

Then earlier

Hello, friends

Our assignment took us deep into enemy territory. Unlike the times before, however, the job was, in some ways, much more dangerous. We changed into plausible civilians clothing, each armed with a concealed firearm, and under the cover of darkness made our way into the occupied city of Kherson on bicycles, in pairs, taking the Western approach. After hiding the bicycles in the brush, we snuck into the city proper.

The streets were quiet, dead quiet. We saw not a living soul except for occasional #Russian patrols, in vehicles and sometimes on foot, driving around, shining flashlights into windows and dark corners. Anyone on the streets at night is immediately arrested and often beaten.

Making our way through the city during curfue hours was a tense experience. Our contact has warned us to remain in the shadows and not to expose ourselves to spying eyes. While a minority, the collaborators in Kherson are everywhere, and they wouldn't hesitate to tip the Russians off if they saw us on the street after dark. A window opening above us or a flicker of someone's cigarette on a balcony, a barking dog in the distance, all were enough for us to cling to the walls in the darkness and hold our breath.

We eventually made contact with a member of the local Resistance that were invaluable in acting as spotters for our artillery for the last month. They provided us with Russian uniforms but no id papers. We could pass for Russian soldiers from a distance, but any up close examination would've revealed our true nature.

The resistance reported that the situation in the city is grim. People have been disappearing from their homes or taken right off the streets, never to be seen again. Anyone associated with territorial defense, SBU, local government administration, journalists and political activists is a target. Rumours are floating around that the Russians are sending them off to concentration camps in Russia, or simply executing them somewhere outside the city of Kherson and burying them in mass graves. Children have also been forcefully relocated to Russia. Just a few days ago, a Resistance member told us, an expression of sadness and pain on his face, 60 orphans were rounded up and taken East.

Thousands of tonnes of grain have been taken from Kherson region to Russia. Another Holodomor in the planning.

Come morning, the curfue is over. We wait for the streets to start filling up with people hurrying along their daily tasks, and we venture outside. The tension can be felt immediately. Citizens keep their eyes to the ground, avoiding looking at each other or at the Russian soldiers. Suspicion, distrust, fear and hatred are palpable. The Russians feel it too, and that makes them scared, frustrated, angry and on edge, their faces grey and tired. They randomly stop people on the street, frequently violently, particularly men. They search their belongings and phones for suspicious items and content.

Their efforts to turn Kherson "Russian" continue. Many positions in civil administration are now occupied by Russian collaborators. They shamelessly push Russian state propaganda and actively assist the invader in identifying and arresting Ukrainian citizens that present a threat to the Russification of the region.

We remained in the city until evening, and then made our way back to the bicycles. A couple of hours later and a close call with a Russian BTR, we finally made it to our lines, where kind souls have prepared strong coffee and plenty of cigarettes.

Thus ends our infiltration of Kherson, a city straining under Russian occupation and provocations (Kyivstar Internet was cut as we were leaving, most likely to blame it on the Ukrainians)

I cannot discuss the specific objectives of this operation, but I can say that they were all achieved.

Glad to be back.

I appreciate all the Internet warriors putting in their two cents about opsec and legalities of war. All I'm going to say to that is WAKE THE FUCK UP. You want to win playing by the rules, come here and do it the "right way". I win any way I can.

AND

I've made this kind of post before, but it looks like not everyone got the memo.

We're running a complex assymetrical program. Revealing why and how we do what we do is done only when it serves a specific, defined purpose. In the case of Kherson, it serves several.

C'est ca.

Background. Kherson is due to have a Russian 'referedum' on 1st May. Zelensky's late night speech tonight was about freedom of all Ukraine including the occupied bits.

The above is very stark positive propaganda. I treat with skepticism about what really happened or whether it's to stir up trouble and paranoia and to reassure those occupied.

Its still not clear who made the full internet blackout in Kherson. Maybe morning will bring clues.

And now back to trying to sleep in the rain.

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