Ukraine Invasion: Part 21

[MagicFox]

Another thread, thank you to all

RedToothBrush regarding the spate of suicides, I presume some of them have had their hand in the tills. Sergey Protosenya apparently has a personal fortune of $433 million. Not bad for a former vice president and chief accountant of Novatek, a major gas company with close connections to Gazprombank.

I guess you could say that of all the oligarchs. Here's hoping they continue to top themselves.

baroqueandblue I totally get you. I have no one who wants to talk about it in real life. There is a collective denial of the horrors in Ukraine. It is falling off the headlines. It is so surreal but occupies my thoughts a lot (when I should be working). Last thing I think of before I sleep and first thing I think off when I wake. Always hoping for a silver of good news and dreading the bad.

I keep it to myself in real life because the children have other things in their lives and there is no point burdening them with things they cannot change much. But I feel it is my duty to know and be vigilant, as a form of solidarity with Ukraine.

This thread is my therapy. Come join us.

PS I know nothing too, just reading the helpful posts and informative links and latest news that the more knowledgeable posters sign-post to.

Thank you @blueshoes

Solidarity (solidarnosz) - you using that word has really helped me, because it has such power historically and that power is still there, despite the separatist, divisive and murderous forces trying to overwhelm it.

You're right about the children, of course. We oughtn't bother them with it, and since they haven't asked I haven't brought it up. Actually I'm scared I wouldn't know how to answer for the best if they did ask about it. And that's OK, I'm their uncle, and their parents must decide on answers to such questions really. But to think that they'll have to acknowledge this war at some level, at some point, breaks my heart. They, like all children, deserve so much better from the world.

Observing the commentary and (some of) the information provided on these threads is also a kind of solidarity with myself. I could never forgive myself if I looked away. And yet for years I did just that during media cycles around other conflicts, and I understand why people do. So easy to forget we're 'world citizens' when acknowledging it would shake us out of our nooks. Maybe part of my anger is about my nook not being viable now, and the children's nooks under threat. But then I'm reminded of the devastation and displacement for Ukrainian people, and the sordid terror Putin has wrought in their lives and their land, and I have to face up to the world as it now is.

@baroqueandblue You're not alone, I worry constantly about if and when this might impact my children, and I mess myself up imagining what's happening to children in Ukraine. What world these kids will experience, all because of old narcissistic men

The whole point of an oligarch is to have his hand in the till. It’s Putin’s business/government model. The oligarchs are allowed to make obscene fortunes asset-stripping the country and are expected in return to bail Putin out when he needs it, e.g. to pay for the wars he wages as part of his domestic and foreign publicity/terror campaigns.
I suspect a reluctance to underwrite the current one has led to the current spate of assassinations dressed up as murder/suicides.

I so hope the two fires in Russia are sabotage - the Kremlin are blaming faulty wires at present so that would suggest possibly. Though maybe to control the narrative they'll start blaming the west at some point. Wonder how state tv will report them.

On another note, I hope Johnson is sacked. I have no confidence in him. I don't want him to be PM during this crisis and I have a gross suspicion he's using it to detract attention from what a lying hobknob he is.

@baroqueandblue you neatly sum up why I post and have posted in the past about a variety of other subjects.

I've been accused in the past of having a particular agenda or being paid by someone to post.

The truth is much more simple and I think is much more jarring. Its about a sense of realisation about whats happening out there but having absolutely no power to do anything about it. All I have is the ability to share my thoughts, to collect information and awareness and to hope that in itself causes something to change.

I think its worth pointing out, that we are blessed with the freedom to speak in this way without fear, even if it sometimes feels pointless or meaningless. (I don't believe it is. Everyone who is here gets something from it if nothing else). And that for me is what I think of when you see 'polls' about what Russians think and how all Russians are complicit with whats happening in Ukraine. Many of those Middle Class Russians about to be utterly screwed are probably more aware of whats really happening more than they may be willing to admit to even themselves. But how can you KNOW when you are isolated and can not speak to anyone about it? You may have all these thoughts and feelings but no way to verbalise and discuss with others about what your gut is telling you is 'off' about what you are being told. You have no ability to gauge whether what you feel is wrong is real or just all in your head.

I think that is what gives me some hope in the long term; if the wall slips then there will be a large group of people who will start to question things, not because of Ukraine but because they want a basic standard of living and a future that the Oligarchs have stolen from them.

Most people aren't interested in politics. They just want food, shelter, safety, work and dignity.

Kevin Rothrock AT KevinRothrock
In a now deleted VK post, the pro-Kremlin media outlet Readovka claims that Russia’s Defense Ministry stated at a “closed briefing” that it’s lost 13,414 soldiers in Ukraine plus another 7,000 who are missing. 116 sailors killed aboard the Moskva, with 100+ still missing.

Those numbers are very close to Ukrainian KIA numbers and the Moskva report seems on a parr with some of the suggestions that have been made (but doesn't talk about the number of Moskva wounded).

Yes, they will care when it starts to materially affect them. At this point I think blissful ignorance is a conscious choice, and sometimes it's necessary for people to get by

Kevin Rothrock AT KevinRothrock
This recalls the “9,861 killed soldiers” report from Komsomolskaya Pravda back on March 21. The paper claimed that was a hack. I don’t see any statement from Readovka about this new thing.

@baroqueandblue You aren't wrong!

Look at this thread? basically the same few posters, no one seems interested.

I've just listened to an argument on why Germany isn't supplying tanks etc.. (though neither are we) basically, its the same one accepted on here for not supplying MiGs i.e not trained, take too long, no mtce crews or spares.

Though as with the MiG's we should get the ball rolling because we don't know long this war will go on.

atm Ukr is wanting anti tank ammo and artillery and masses of it.

Re the short table and Putin's health.

Apparently the short table is regularly used for one to one meetings.

Also its being pointed out that Putin regularly sits unnaturally clutching the table for dear life and this is his normal sitting position. Some has found a bunch of old photos showing the same thing.

Still looks unwell to me, and he will hate the speculation about it.

@baroqueandblue I’m with you

@RedToothBrush I would never think that you have any agenda.
i find your posts very informative.

Thanks to everybody who contributes to this threads.

I want to know what is happening and whoever mentioned the “not caring” attitude- I have no words.
This war WILL affect several people because of food shortages in autumn and beyond.

My worry is that across the uk and Europe opposition to the war will grow for the same reasons.

Don't mistake people failing to post on this thread or failing to talk about this war irl for lack of interest. For the vast majority of people, there's nothing they can do to influence the outcome: they/we are powerless. What we can do is donate to the DEC in the UK if we are able, continue to show solidarity for Ukraine and for those who are able to, disseminate the information we read and see.

The other thing we need to do, for our mental health and in order not to let the actions of Russia "win", is to carry on as normal as much as possible. I've posted on one of these threads about this before.

Those photos of Putin at the table show nothing other than a habit though? Only one shows him holding the table edge. There's been speculation of everything from him having a degenerative condition to trained readiness to reach a concealed weapon. His looks have changed hugely over the few years, that's for sure. Quite what is the cause no one seems to be able to say for sure.

My fear is the impact of the cost of living crisis on people who cannot afford to pay more for food and energy. We risk civil unrest if as a society we don't help those people and we don't want to be in a situation where support for Ukraine wanes because of problems at home.

Look at this thread? basically the same few posters, no one seems interested.
I appreciate the same few posters sharing views keeping us updated whilst I read quietly.
Thank you.

I check this thread every day (multiple times). I have zero knowledge or experience to contribute so I don't generally waste space posting. I'm sure there are hundreds of lurkers like me. People are interested and worried.

Ps is there a glitch in this thread? I've been chucked out of MN for scrolling through this thread umpteen times this morning. No problem with other threads

Same as other posters, rarely contribute but watch this thread like a HAWK as I'm, quite frankly, scared shitless.

This war WILL affect several people because of food shortages in autumn and beyond.

It will. It will also affect energy prices and will lead to unemployment, and the longer it goes the more support for it will wane. It's natural. Fatigue sets in, our own problems start to bite.

Hungary is already breaking ranks, mind you that's not unusual. The Bulgarian coalition government is cracking, again not unusual. Italy is unhappy about the loss in tourism income and not even the high season yet.

The only economy sector happy about it is the arms manufacturing. Where do we go from there?

Delurking to say that I've read all of these threads. I don't post because I don't really have anything to add but I'm also concerned about it dropping off the headlines. I only know a couple of people in real life who are still interested and it is worrying me. It feels like after the initial fundraising, outrage about visas etc that the general feeling is job done, move onto the next thing, with no deeper thought about what people in Ukraine are actually going through or the long term effects of the war on all of us. Thanks to everyone who does post, I am using some of your insights to try and start conversations with people who seem to be losing interest due to the lack of depth on the BBC news website and similar. I think people sometimes don't have the time or inclination to dig so it seems it's all just rumbling on in the background with no dramatic developments.

Just to add that I think there might be an element of this happening a generation or so late for the full horrors of it be appreciated (but then, Bosnia. So, I don't know...). It's probably mostly only older adults now who grew up with first hand stories of the world wars rather than seeing it as "history" and I think that makes a difference. I remember my grandfather's opinion of Putin and that he needed to be watched and I'm glad in a way that he died a couple of years ago and doesn't have to watch all this happening, much as I'd like to discuss it with him. I know he'd be annoyed that nobody was talking about it much and I suspect he'd be all for going in with both boots on and calling Putin's bluff. He also had plenty of stories about the behaviour of the Russians in Germany just after the war. It's endemic in a way it isn't with other armies and nothing has changed.

As for the same posters, it's something inevitable on long running threads.

Quite frankly, I'm losing the will as well. Have not looked at any Russian media for at least a week, fed up with the propaganda.

I echo what has been said on this page. Thank you @baroqueandblue for your very thoughtful post and I agree wholeheartedly with @EmeraldShamrock1 anout appreciating hugely the same few posters. Yesterday I was quite unable to access this thread and then only if I was logged out. I was really surprised to find how much I really minded about that. Like others have said, this has become THE place I come to to read about updates. I too have no-one outside to discuss what is going on, and I have re-ignited a part of me that had become completely inert (largely due to what was going on personally) and that is thanks to the links that people have posted and opinions and views expressed. I am hugely grateful to all of you for this space.

On a complete aside, did I read that you can now edit posts? The grammar is awful in my previous post!!

I'm grateful too for the coming together on these threads and sometimes very moved by it .