Hepatitis outbreak in children

[MumbleCrumbs]

I'm currently really quite unwell with Covid and not sleeping very well so please be gentle, but is anyone else really worried about the reports of this hepatitis outbreak in children now being monitored by the WHO? It seems to have gained traction over the last few days and lots of reports coming out about it now. I know very little about hepatitis but I know its quite rare to see such severe cases in children. Could Covid be the cause? I'm just feeling really quite worried about it and so sad for these poor children and their families, how horrendous after we've all just come through a pandemic .

Thankfully most infections with this adenovirus clustering present with only gastroenteritis symptoms.

theconversation.com/hepatitis-outbreak-in-children-explainer-on-adenovirus-type-41-the-possible-culprit-181959

Oh come now @Zilla1 really?
Blimey @Zilla1ould love to see how you research your new car purchase or your next holiday destination etc etc.

That should say... Blimey I would love to...

Those links you quoted @kittensinthekitchen are just the same ones that milky did. Not one scientist is saying they think Covid is to blame, just that nothing is off the table. And it shouldn’t be.

The link you quoted also mentions lockdowns as a possible cause. I’ve linked it again. It doesn’t seem to be supporting what you are arguing. More what I am arguing. That they have no idea and they are looking at all possibilities.

The link you quoted says that adenovirus is top of the suspect list. Not Covid.

Because children had different levels of lockdown i.e. children of hospital workers would have had their immune systems challenged far more via their parents and in a lot of cases they were still in childcare/school etc.
But some children did not have any interaction at all with the outside world for example parents working from home.

Another scientist Dr Judith Bruer - Professor of Virology and the director of the pathogen genomics unit at University Collge London was approached by the U.K. Health Security Agency to investigate the cases in Scotland.

She produced some findings yesterday so all very current.

‘Although many of the children have tested positive for Covid - metagenomic tests seemed to play down an adverse reaction to Omicron as the main cause’

The article goes on to say
‘However, she does believe that social distancing resulting from coronavirus lockdowns may have resulted in lowered immune systems as viruses begin to circulate all at once’

’It was such an upheaval who knows what impact that will have on our immune systems and the pathogens that are circulating’.

I find it interesting that many scientists are coming out to say they think it may be to do with social distancing and lockdowns.

I find it interesting that many scientists are coming out to say they think it may be to do with social distancing and lockdowns.

And many scientists are "coming out to say" it could be to do with covid infection. It could be nothing to do with covid at all. It could be to do with sanitary conditions, underlying health condition, anything. They haven't found any definitive answers yet.

But I'm out, because you've already decided the cause. Maybe you ought to present your evidence to those who are still keeping all possibilities on the table and not just dismissing the ones they dislike the sound of.

@mmmmmmghturep the WHO (basically China) are currently in the process of expanding their powers to intervene in a country in the event of a future outbreak....

www.who.int/news/item/01-12-2021-world-health-assembly-agrees-to-launch-process-to-develop-historic-global-accord-on-pandemic-prevention-preparedness-and-response

I’ve been back through the thread to find all these scientists and virologists and immunologists that you have quoted speaking about their views linking this to Covid @milkyaqua and I just can’t find any! I can find all the ones I quoted with their views on lockdown/social distancing and immune systems.

Then you didn't even read the paragraph I quoted from the UK Health Security Agency's technical briefing...?

I am assuming you did not read a single article I linked, as every one included this possibility from multiple sources, also.

And like I said 95% of children have antibodies to Covid.

Really? Is that a scientific figure? Luckily, there is more refinement in the search for answers than simply assuming that and giving up. They are using genomic sequencing in the investigations.

Nothing has been ruled out but your determination to prove that this is Covid is making you look ill informed.

This is hilarious. I am not trying to prove anything, but correcting your oft-stated, blinkered assertions. Adenovirus 41 has been found in a percentage of cases, it differs world-wide, and is certainly the leading hypotheses, but they are looking for an explanation why it would be causing this level of severe hepatitis. One co-factor would be Covid-related post-inflammatory changes, or the adenovirus may simply be in circulation and unrelated. You know, hypotheses testing.

It is amusing you can't seem to read a straightforward sentence from one of your approved scientific sources.

@milkyaqua I’ve said repeatedly that all
options are on the table. I’ve acknowledged that they are looking at Covid but it is not the leading hypothesis. The adenovirus theory is. I’ve linked to many, many scientists and experts who have come out to say they think that lockdown and social distancing has had an an impact here. It’s a discussion forum so I think it’s important to quote what is being said in the scientific community.

You have tried to dominate this thread with your agenda pushing the Covid link when this has no evidence to back it up and very few, if any scientists have come out to say they think it is to do with this. All your quotes merely say they are looking at this as one of many hypotheses. I’ve popped back on with some views from scientists from Imperial college this week regarding lockdown and social distancing to provide some much needed balance to the thread.

I’m not blinkered. I’ve said thankfully they are looking at everything- as they should. But it’s good to see the opinion within the scientific world as to what they think the cause is. And looking at Covid as a co-factor and not ruling it out is not the same as saying they think that is the leading hypothesis and why.

Why is it under 5s? Why has it just become a problem now? Experts have discussed that the reason for this particular age group being affected could be lockdown and social distancing. It’s a very valid and coherent argument.

I’m talking about opinions and views within the scientific community of which I have quoted many. I find it interesting to hear what scientists take on this is. As currently there are no answers and it’s like a massive jigsaw. So what do the people whose job this is think?

Linking to paragraphs from technical briefings just shows an unbiased list of what the current hypothesis are. There’s no discussion or opinion there. Of course in the current climate they need to look at Covid.

Def not my area of expertise but I found this discussion interesting (talks about research carried out at Imperial College, London, & Cedars Sinai, LA. Still just a hypothesis). It’s Dr Mobeen on YouTube if the link doesn’t work.

You have tried to dominate this thread with your agenda pushing the Covid link

Good god. You have tried to dominate this thread with your odd anti-"lockdown" agenda. The repeated sniping and the complete lack of selfawareness is rather worrying. But this last post rewriting history is actually alarming.

I’ve acknowledged that they are looking at Covid but it is not the leading hypothesis.

No, you have not. I could go back and pluck out the multiple instances of you stating flat out that there is no link with Covid!

I am done with you, please do not @ me, and please do not quote me.

So ‘anti-lockdown’ is now odd. I hope you consider all the scientists I quote that state they think it is to do with lockdown and social distancing odd too. You know the experts. Very odd of them.

Funny, it’s as though as a population we will find it very tricky to accept the cure was worse than the disease after all. We’ve thrown our children under the bus in many ways throughout this pandemic. But if by keeping them shut away we have increased an incidence of a adenovirus virus that leads to these awful, awful complications then that is truely shameful.

I actually hope it is Covid. As the alternative is far worse isn’t it?

95% is a figure quoted by Dr Elizabeth Whittaker from Imperial College. As I’ve now stated twice. I haven’t just made it up. I would assume she wouldn’t quote figures out of thin air and she knows what she is talking about (more than mumsnetters)
I’ve reattached why she doesn’t think Covid is a factor.

I’m allowed to have an opinion. I’ve said many times that all hypotheses are being looked at and I acknowledge that they are looking at Covid to rule this out as a cause. Myself and many scientists don’t believe this to be the cause. And have explained why.

They are looking at is as a co-infection issue. But many many scientists have stated they believe lockdown and social distancing may be behind this problem.

I’m happy not to quote you once you stop misquoting me.

I’ve already sourced the 95% figure.

That quote literally says that Covid itself is a possible factor. I’m not sure that it rules out past infection as a cause either.

I’m not sure the problem here is that scientists have decided on a leading theory, but that you are hearing something they aren’t saying when they speak. We could list all the scientists who propose reasonable mechanisms for this or who predicted that something like this would happen due to covid but if they also happen to mention lockdown as a possible cause then you seem to interpret that as them supporting lockdown as the leading hypothesis and dismiss them looking at Covid as trying to rule it out.

I’m linking to quotes directly said by experts so not sure how I’m mishearing anything.

They have said repeatedly that the leading theory is an adenovirus (not Covid). I don’t think it’s me that is misreading and mishearing.

They are exploring all possibilities and one of those is Covid perhaps a co-infection. I’ve linked to the commentary on the view scientists have on the impact of lockdowns and social distancing on a naive immune system and why they view this to be an issue. In terms of balance to the thread as certain posters are only pushing the Covid theory.

Meanwhile...

>>Scientists Suggest Link Between COVID And Mysterious Liver Damage In Children

A possible link between COVID-19 infection and the mysterious liver damage seen in children around the world has been put forward by a team of scientists in The Lancet.

Adenoviruses have been found in at least 74 cases according to the World Health Organization, with 18 identified as adenovirus F type 41 - a type that hasn't been associated with liver damage previously.

In the UK, where most cases have been reported, adenovirus has been found in 75 percent of those children tested.

As Professor Will Irving of the University of Nottingham explained in April, this still leaves the puzzle as to why the adenovirus could be causing liver damage when it hadn't done previously.

"The link with adenovirus infection remains tantalising - a definite possibility but not yet proven," Irving said.

"There are very few case reports in the global literature of adenovirus infection being associated with hepatitis in immunocompetent children - so if it transpires that adenoviral infection is involved in causing this disease outbreak, there will be a need to explain why the natural history of adenovirus infection has changed so dramatically in 2022."

"We hypothesise that the recently reported cases of severe acute hepatitis in children could be a consequence of adenovirus infection with intestinal trophism in children previously infected by SARS-CoV-2 and carrying viral reservoirs," they posit.<<

smmry.com/www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/scientists-suggest-link-between-covid-and-mysterious-liver-damage-in-children/

www.iflscience.com/health-and-medicine/scientists-suggest-link-between-covid-and-mysterious-liver-damage-in-children/

www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/coronavirus-may-be-linked-cases-severe-hepatitis-children-2022-05-16/

>>Whether the cause is traced to an adenovirus, the coronavirus, some combination of the two, or another culprit entirely, the research emerging points to possible long-term effects of viruses, especially as they spread widely and reveal rare side-effects.

Covid, for instance, has been shown to affect hearts, brains, lungs, livers and kidneys long after the initial infection ceases – and even in mild cases.

“I really worry about the long-term effects of Covid-19 on multiple organ systems of children,” Xu said.

The good news is that we know how to prevent cases of this and many other viruses, by employing masks, improving ventilation, washing hands, providing sick leave, vaccinating everyone who is eligible, and more...<<

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/may/23/hepatitis-cases-children-rising

Yes let's have more mask wearing...

www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-00027-4

jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaotolaryngology/fullarticle/2776744

news.sky.com/story/covid-19-impact-of-lockdown-on-childrens-development-will-last-for-years-and-years-12500806

www.theguardian.com/society/2022/apr/04/pandemic-has-delayed-social-skills-of-young-children-says-ofsted-chief

I wonder what the 'and more' is at the end? Lockdowns?...

econpapers.repec.org/paper/risjhisae/0200.htm

Good god we’re still pushing mask wearing for children are we?

Are we trying to prevent all viruses to the detriment of social interaction and development? Great idea.

Let’s just all try and be as healthy as we can - eat well, keep a healthy weight, expose our children to good germs and accept viruses will always be around.

Obviously I’m a fan of hand washing but no more social distancing and mask wearing for the general public for viruses that have always been with us.

You need to be exposed to illnesses, to recover and build antibodies not hide away.

One snippet of information that caught my attention - Sweden had recorded 9 cases of hepatitis in children of unknown origin as of May 10. These results were collected over the preceding six months.

In the UK doctors had been used to seeing around 20 cases of this type per year before the current surge.

Assuming that the background rate is similar in Sweden, and taking into account population difference, it does seem as if Sweden is also experiencing the same uptick in cases as many other countries. (The absolute numbers are of course small and it could be a statistical blip.)

But the reason Sweden is of particular interest is because schools for younger children and childcare centres remained open throughout the pandemic. If lockdowns were behind the hepatitis cases, Sweden might have been expected to not have been affected, or at least less affected.

This is not to say that lockdowns haven’t been problematic for children in many ways, just that in this instance the Swedish data suggests - to me at least - that other factors are at play.