Karen

[strawberrydaquiari]

The use of Karen as an insult isn't going away is it?
I'm fed up. I feel silenced. I can't stand up to the insult without being accused of acting "like one" and being shut down.
It's everywhere and I hate it.

I hate it

@babywalker56 I don't expect you to say you've been on the receiving end of it if you haven't. That would be ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as someone assuming that I haven't experienced it, when they don't know me from a hole in the ground. Since you find it so interesting, no I haven't been called it myself, but I know someone who has (my sister-in-law) and, in fact, my 13yo DS used the expression himself about someone a couple of weeks ago. He said everyone was using it in school, including the girls. Thankfully though, he was happy to stop using it when I explained why I believed it was misogynistic.

The women in question used her privilege, and sex. She lied and contributed to the death on an innocent child. Her despicable behaviour led to a outrageous outcome. But not for herself. Sounds familiar.

Aren't you proving my point.

Most reports acknowledge there is no one consistent account of what happened in the shop. I haven't seen an account where she admitted she lied but let's accept she did, let's agree she abused her privilege. You'll get no arguement from me that those things are despicable and the murder was abhorrent. Worse still the murderers were acquitted, later admit their guilt but could not be tried again because of double jeopardy laws.

Who committed the murder? Do men have agency? Do they know right from wrong? Are men the puppets of women? How much power do you think women had in 1950's America? Why is the woman in this story responsible for the actions of two men who committed murder?

In a North American context*, "Karen" is a specifically misogynist, sexually violent, rape apologist, and anti-black racist slur. Anyone who still uses it unironically is at best wilfully ignorant, and most likely misogynist, rape apologist, and white supremacist.

The term started with a seventeen year old white boy in California who started a forum (AKA a "subreddit") on reddit.com called r/fuckyoukaren asking members to contribute their suggestions about how best to sexually abuse, punish, and humiliate his (fictional) "ex-wife", Karen. The sub is still there; you can go and read it yourself. If you doubt this, go on reddit and do a search for "Karen". If you still endorse use of the term afterwards, you can tell your wife or sister or daughter and/or every other woman you know why she deserves sexual violence simply because she is female.

I can't specifically blame the child who started r/fuckyoukaren for this, but at some point black women in the USA were vociferously blamed for "Karen" as a term. It never was a black American term; misogyists and anti-black racists made it up to divide black and white feminists. This is a misogynist rape-apologist, rape-promoting trope and every dud here defending it is a racist misogynist. And yes, if that's you, that means you're a bigot.

As far as whether we should add Keith or Kevin or Gammon (is that a name used for boys in the UK?) ... hell. no. I don't want men to be dehumanised and subjected to threats of sexual violence either. What kind of nihilistic arsehole does?

(* If "Karen" has a meaning in the UK which pre-dates and is independent from the North American meaning, then please post some evidence of that.)

Google Karen's Diner - I was in shock seeing the videos , I'm not sure why someone has come up with this

@PollyPollyPollyPolly

Could you have just said, "are these yours guys? Don't forget them

Don’t think she was looking for tips on how to be less assertive.

😅😅😅

I haven't heard it for ages until you brought it up OP, it's definitely died out round here and on Mumsnet as far as I can see.
I was born with a very rare condition of not giving a shit what other people think of me, as such I embrace my inner Karen. Let's own the fucking title! I also own frumpiness and think Karening and frumpiness are underrated.

I don't use the term and it's not ideal that it's a name but it's important that doesn't overshadow the fact it's generally used to describe entitled, condescending, ageist & often racist behaviour.

Yes - we should label the behaviour without using the name but flapping around in the mn echo chamber about the injustice of a word just ignores the actual issue.

The photocopier example - would you have asked in quite the same abrupt manner if the papers had belonged to a middle-aged female colleague instead of young 'boys'? I would imagine your tone in that case would've been very different! You said it the way you did to put them on their place, disgusting messy boys, and exert your perceived authority over them, when in fact in the context of sharing the equipment at work, however much you don't like it, they are your equals.

To be honest the fear of being labelled a 'Karen' actually makes me check my reaction to stuff, get some perspective and not be a knob at every minor inconvenience.

If someone is racist, call them a racist. Do we need a name for female racists? No. We have the word racist.

Exactly.

The photocopier example - would you have asked in quite the same abrupt manner if the papers had belonged to a middle-aged female colleague instead of young 'boys'? I would imagine your tone in that case would've been very different! You said it the way you did to put them on their place, disgusting messy boys, and exert your perceived authority over them, when in fact in the context of sharing the equipment at work, however much you don't like it, they are your equals.

This comment was really interesting. First, that it assumed the op was abrupt in her request. Nothing the op has said indicated that was the case. Second, in the assumption that the op only has perceived authority in this situation. Why assume that? If op is older, she might very well be in a management position, perhaps one that specifically requires her to train junior employees in best practices.

when in fact in the context of sharing the equipment at work, however much you don't like it, they are your equals.

That poster's status (which she hasn't clarified) is irrelevant - it's rude to leave your stuff all over shared equipment at work, so others can't use it - it's rude whether you are the office junior or the CEO. She was perfectly justified in asking them to move it.

Yeah leaving your stuff on the photocopier is rude, and name calling is never nice, but he was probably quite embarrassed at being told off like that in front of his mates and made the stupid Karen jibe to save face.

'Please can you not leave your papers on the copier as I need to print some stuff' would come across more like a telling off than for example just saying 'these yours?' or just shuffling them out of your way, like other pp's suggested.

Just trying to see it from both sides as seniority is irrelevant - doesn't matter who's more senior professionally in terms of how you talk to each other in the workplace. He shouldn't have retorted like that but better not to give them anything to retort to.

My point is 'karen' isn't a great word for it but I do think having an insult to describe condescending behaviours and over reactions to minor inconveniences is useful and the fear of being labelled such will help some people be a bit kinder in general.

Also I think people can easily make the distinction between 'being a Karen' and the name Karen. If someone told me their name was Karen I wouldn't conflate it any more with poor behaviour than I would confuse someone called Bill with an invoice I needed to pay 🤷🏻‍♀️

This can happen with names.

DrSbaitso fabulous.

'Please can you not leave your papers on the copier as I need to print some stuff' would come across more like a telling off than for example just saying 'these yours?' or just shuffling them out of your way, like other pp's suggested.

A telling off? It's a simple request, prefixed by 'please'. I think 'these yours?' would come across as rude and abrupt; as for moving them herself - why should she have to tidy up after men, to avoid being called a 'Karen'?

She doesn't!

But he may just have left them there as an honest mistake so not worth creating drama over imo.

Depends how much a few papers on a photocopier bothers you I suppose... perspective, you could call it.

I don't think politely asking someone to move their papers from the photocopier is 'creating drama'. For most people it would be a total non-event. If it were me, at work, I'd just say, 'Oh, sorry,' and move them immediately as requested. It was the men in this situation who 'made something of it' by starting the 'Karen' jeering.

the photocopier hoggers are lucky she didn't go malcolm tucker on them.

Would he be a "Karen"? or is it ok cos he's a bloke?

I do think having an insult to describe condescending behaviours and over reactions to minor inconveniences is useful

But it isn't this general word you are looking for, because it's a sexist slur for women.

I don't think politely asking someone to move their papers from the photocopier is 'creating drama'. For most people it would be a total non-event. If it were me, at work, I'd just say, 'Oh, sorry,' and move them immediately as requested. It was the men in this situation who 'made something of it' by starting the 'Karen' jeering.

Yes. Why are some posters falling over themselves to make excuses for arsehole men?

"Karen" wasn't anything to do with race when it originated in memes about calling the manager and weirdo male subreddits. It's always been an ageist and misogynistic slur and there are many posters on mumsnet including in the TAAT on another board here who are completely ignorant about where it came from. It was not some righteous "let's fight racism" term when it was first coined, that's a later adoption, mostly in the US. And it has never had that meaning in the mainstream in the U.K. where it just means any middle aged or older woman talking out of turn, and as a feminist I will always call it out, as the misogynistic slur it is. Whoever uses it. There's no need for a special word for a woman, it's deeply sexist. It is also a middle class name in the US, whereas in the U.K. Karen is just as likely as not to be the retail employee getting shat on by men and women alike.

Spot on. But you forgot to mention the haircut, we're physically repellent too.

I’ve never been called a Karen

I’m middle aged and opinionated and work with a lot of young people

I’m used to be shut down I’m a women not sure why being called a Karen would make it worse

Hardly has a huge impact on someone’s life it’s just an annoyance (though feel sorry for those called Karen)

Gammon has been acceptable on MN and Wendy

But Karen really gets many riled up

@babywalker56 its used on facebook etc a lot on public posts where someone complains or doesn't agree , often by young men or women who don't have any idea of the real meaning of why originally it was originally used
I have heard young people say it as well just in their conversations , again many of them not fully understanding origin
I can't say I have heard someone use it to someones face though

When I first came across the insult on Facebook I had to have it explained to me, and I replied that I thought it was sexist, unfair to Karens, etc, and got, "Do you want to speak to the manager?" My reply was "I AM the manager!"